11th March 2004, 7:05 PM
That's the traditional way of thinking -- that they never would have surrendered any other way. Sorry that I've been reading some newer books that are a bit more contraversial on their views on the end of the war...
ASM you say nothing I didn't say already, in some of my long posts. I acknowledged that Japan was extremely militaristic. I said that their constitution was rigged so that when it wanted to the people on top could easily take over and Japanese society, as a 'do as your superior says no matter what' society in every way, was an easy one for a military clique to take over, especially when they are closely connected to some of the biggest industrialists...
But as I said, in 1945 it was obvious that they had lost. A book we're reading for class is a biography of Hirohito. It's a contraversial one. It says that contrary to the popular belief, Hirohito was a strong leader who had a lot of power. He wasn't just a pawn of militarists, he WAS a militarist. He was brought up to be one by a military clique and he grew up to be one. And he believed that Japan would win, strongly. The book says that Hirohito didn't really start thinking about peace until after Okinawa was over... most other governments would have surrendered well before then, but as we have established Japan had a unique character. Still there WAS a peace side, including the crown prince, and the Emperor by the time Okinawa ended had realized that the war probably had to be ended. And as I said the main conflict was the peace group, now immesurably stronger (it would have gone absolutely nowhere without the Emperor's support), versus militarists.
And as I said, the big unanswered question is what it would have taken to dislodge them. After reading this book, and another one about postwar Japan, I think that the nuke was not needed. As I said timely diplomacy (possibly as little as assuring that the Imperial house would not be destroyed) or maybe a test not on a city could possibly have done it (if given time to go through the process). But of course I'm liberal and the books probably are too so you probably won't pay much attention to me...
And Weltall I don't get how you continue to think that I wanted us to invade. I just don't.
ASM you say nothing I didn't say already, in some of my long posts. I acknowledged that Japan was extremely militaristic. I said that their constitution was rigged so that when it wanted to the people on top could easily take over and Japanese society, as a 'do as your superior says no matter what' society in every way, was an easy one for a military clique to take over, especially when they are closely connected to some of the biggest industrialists...
But as I said, in 1945 it was obvious that they had lost. A book we're reading for class is a biography of Hirohito. It's a contraversial one. It says that contrary to the popular belief, Hirohito was a strong leader who had a lot of power. He wasn't just a pawn of militarists, he WAS a militarist. He was brought up to be one by a military clique and he grew up to be one. And he believed that Japan would win, strongly. The book says that Hirohito didn't really start thinking about peace until after Okinawa was over... most other governments would have surrendered well before then, but as we have established Japan had a unique character. Still there WAS a peace side, including the crown prince, and the Emperor by the time Okinawa ended had realized that the war probably had to be ended. And as I said the main conflict was the peace group, now immesurably stronger (it would have gone absolutely nowhere without the Emperor's support), versus militarists.
And as I said, the big unanswered question is what it would have taken to dislodge them. After reading this book, and another one about postwar Japan, I think that the nuke was not needed. As I said timely diplomacy (possibly as little as assuring that the Imperial house would not be destroyed) or maybe a test not on a city could possibly have done it (if given time to go through the process). But of course I'm liberal and the books probably are too so you probably won't pay much attention to me...
And Weltall I don't get how you continue to think that I wanted us to invade. I just don't.