Xbox 360 Launch: Success or Mess?

[Paco]

I'm going to go with mess.

First off I think we should note why Microsoft chose to launch this holiday season as opposed to waiting. Simply, they wanted a headstart on the competition to avoid what they believed was the reason the original Xbox did not sell as well as PS2. That is, Sony came out first.

Now I know what you're saying, the Dreamcast came out first, and Sony killed it. Well, I don't want to take up that arguement because I don't see any of the underlying problems of Sega during their Dreamcast era (or before for that matter) plaguing Microsoft at this time. Specifically, scarce funds and waning developer support aren't an issue with the Xbox 360. Microsoft has more money than Sony and Nintendo combined, and every developer is on board in one way or another, so let's not go down that road. Besides the superficial comparisons of the similar logo and console color there really is no comparison. I think the jury is still out as to how much of an effect Blu-Ray equipped PS3 will have against the non-HD-movie-ready Xbox 360. I don't care to dust off my crystal ball and I don't trust any of yours so let's just leave it alone.

What does releasing first mean for Microsoft? If Microsoft could establish a solid userbase before the competition ever launched then developers would be more inclined to work on it. Seeing as how the Playstation 3 is guaranteed to be a success, Microsoft needs to get a respectable userbase in order to reel developers in and keep them around. Every developer has said they are on board, and many of them have announced multiple game titles. As of now there are over 200 games in development for the 360, and I'm sure there is more to be announced.

Another reason would be to get off the sinking ship of their first outting, the Xbox. The Xbox was a success in a couple regards: developer support has been continually growing and much of the rivals' third party offerings are available on the Xbox as well. Two is that the Xbox brand image has been on a steadily growing wave of momentum, enough to propel it to the number two position as far as sales go. 22+ million consoles sold is nothing to scoff at, especially seeing as how Xbox was the new kid against two longtime giants. The problem lies with the hardware and that Microsoft, to this day, doesn't make a profit with it. This has mostly to do with Microsoft's hasty decision to jump into the video game arena and launch some 18 months later. There was no time for Microsoft's research and development meaning that MS did not own anything that went into the Xbox. They had to pay royalties for every part and have been paying ever since. Probably needless to say, this is no longer the issue as Microsoft owns just about everything inside the 360 and this will definitely pay off in the long run. Anyway, financial issues aside, Microsoft needed to ride that wave of momentum in to the next generation, with both developers and consumers on board.

You may or may not agree, but that is how I see things.

Now with the 360 leading up to launch...

I don't want to go back as far the first showing of the 360 (the MTV event), E3, or TGS. They're distant memories and the only thing to gather from them is that they managed to generate interest. Good or bad, many people knew the 360 was coming months and months ago. Pre-orders filled up rather quickly at most game retail stores (in the U.S. anyway). It looked like Microsoft would be off to a heady start, and the Microsoft executives seemed overly confident that the launch would be nothing short of a success with plenty of units to go around for their global launch. I suppose you could say it was a success in that there was a solid launch lineup of games and a great demand for Microsoft's new baby, but a very big problem that the supply is nothing short of pathetic compared to other launches.

The Kiosks. I really liked being able to walk into Best Buy and Wal-Mart to play some 360 demos a few weeks before launch, and on a HD TV no less. I gawked at Project Gotham Racing 3, lit up when I saw Kameo, and was almost stunned when I played King Kong. It left a great impression on me, but I couldn't help but wonder where Perfect Dark Zero was, the supposed flagship title.

The Advertising. Color me not impressed. On one hand there were the jump rope and water balloon fight commercials which were great, I loved them, and on the other hand were some Perfect Dark Zero, Kameo, and Project Gotham Racing 3 commercials that I can't even remember as of now. The Dead or Alive 4 commercial is really nice, it's just too bad none of it's gameplay. Microsoft, take some notes from Sony about advertising. Seriously, just ask if you could sit in with them on one of their meetings and jot down whatever comes out of their mouths. This is where Sony and Nintendo walk all over you.

The launch games. I think it's a very solid lineup of games, one of the best I've seen and one of the best reviewed. The problem is that there isn't one game that stands out as the must-have, the all important system seller. I suppose it's okay considering that the PS2 launch didn't have one either, rather they had some 26 games that mostly fell into the good and great category, with SSX, a snowboarding game, getting the best reviews. The supposed flagship title, Perfect Dark Zero, was met with admirable impressions but not one claimed it as a must have.

Was the global launch a good idea? Launching globally in a three week window sounds amazing and would be a first in the video game world, and Microsoft did just that. However, they weren't very well prepared on all fronts.

I believe the U.S. sales numbers for the Xbox 360 in the month of November, between the launch day of the 22nd to the last day, the 30th, were 300,000-400,000. Sold out within in mintues at most major retail stores, leaving some who waited in line with nothing, and worse is that many of the pre-orders didn't get filled. In fact, most didn't get filled until this past week and there are still more people waiting. It's obvious that the 360 is in high demand, a very hot item for the holiday season, clearly Microsoft didn't make a bad decision about jumping into next gen too early as some people said, but was it really that good of an idea to release some units rather than none at all and simply wait? I know Microsoft couldn't just delay the the launch, that would piss off alot of consumers and publishers, plus they would miss the all important holiday season, but will this have an effect on the 360's success? They could have sold ALOT more. Will there be a lasting effect? I say no, it will be forgotten in time and only dragged up on internet forums as a major debacle when the next Xbox launch is underway. No doubt it pissed off some consumers who will just wait for Sony or Nintendo's new console, but I believe that will be a very small group of people.

I'm not sure about the sales numbers in Europe but I predict it sold out as well, and I believe they were alloted the same amount of consoles. Japan is a different story. I think they sold 62,000 360's on launch day (or launch week, I'm not sure), and I believe that Japan got some 250,000 consoles. One problem is that the Japanese just don't care for the American born Xbox and thought similarily for the successor. It's true that there is more Japanese developer support, which has surprised me, but there were no high-profile Japanese made games at launch. I'm not even sure Dead or Alive 4 is out yet, nevermind that other games like Blue Dragon (was on the Famitsu most-wanted list), Lost Odyssey, Every Party, Ninety Nine Nights, Enchant Arm, and others won't be available until sometime in 2006.

Like I said, it's a great idea and it could have been astonishing to have all the peices fall into place for Microsoft. Better luck next time, I suppose.

The faulty hardware. I don't know all the facts, and I'm not sure what the actual failure rate is but I do know that this has been one of the worst launches in the regard of faulty hardware. Overheating, crashing, scratching discs...I'm actually quite surprised that people are still buying them over ebay for multiple times what they're worth just to have it now.

It's not all bad. The Xbox 360 is out and building a fanbase as we speak while the competition is still being developed in a lab somewhere. There are some really great looking games on the not-so-distant horizon. Things can only get better, right? Unless there's some massive recall due to 360's starting fires.;)

I've probably over looked some facet of the launch but I said everything I wanted to. It was handled poorly and I can honestly say that I don't regret not buying one. I hope Microsoft pulls out of this okay and that there is much success with the 360, because I've had quite a bit of fun with my Xbox and I want to see Rare make a ginormous comeback in the coming years. Here's to a brighter tomorrow, Microsoft. Cheers.

[Dark Jaguar]

Here's the first thing. MS didn't make a "hasty" jump into consoles. The code named "XBox" had been announced for many long years before that particular incarnation. In fact, at first some people believed MS would scrap this model and delay yet again.

[Great Rumbler]

The Xbox360 did worse in Japan than the original Xbox. Not a good sign.

[Dark Jaguar]

No, I suppose that wouldn't be a good sign.

[Paco]

The Xbox360 did worse in Japan than the original Xbox. Not a good sign.

Worse than the original Xbox launch in Japan? Do you know what the numbers were?

[Paco]

Here's the first thing. MS didn't make a "hasty" jump into consoles. The code named "XBox" had been announced for many long years before that particular incarnation. In fact, at first some people believed MS would scrap this model and delay yet again.

I'll have to find the interview, I believe it was on eurogamer.net, but I think what I said was almost verbatim from one of the Microsoft execs. I'll see what I find...

[Great Rumbler]

Worse than the original Xbox launch in Japan? Do you know what the numbers were?

I don't have the exact numbers, but the number of Xbox360s sold during the first week was about half the number of Xboxes sold during the first week. Software was even lower.

[Paco]

I don't have the exact numbers, but the number of Xbox360s sold during the first week was about half the number of Xboxes sold during the first week. Software was even lower.

Found'em...

127,000 in three days for the Xbox

To be fair, at least that launch had Dead or Alive 3. Dead or Alive 4 should arrive before the year's end. Unfortunately, nothing is known for the other Japan made games except for a vague 2006 release date.

[A Black Falcon]

Hmm... I'd say that they were very successful, in the US and Europe... until it came time to actually make the systems fast enough. Their haste to get the system out did not work with their production schedule, and the massive console shortage that resulted is predictable. Really, they should have waited. Getting out first isn't overrated... it's rated as not mattering much. Has the first console in a generation ever won? I don't think so...

On that note... he problem of 'what is a console generation'... we want to break things into nice even categories, but it just doesn't work that clearly. For instance. Here's one potential breakdown...

Console generation 1: Magnavox Odyssey (1972-1974) (the first home console)
Console generation 2: Home Pong/clones (1975-76) (might not count, since these systems did not have addon carts, just built in stuff)
Console generation ... 3?: 2600 era. 1976-on. Fairchild Channel F was first, though (1976, versus '77 for the Atari VCS (later '2600'))... the Odyssey 2 also is in this generation.
Now then... where does the Intellivision (1980-on) belong? Is it a late 'generation 3' console? Does it create a new generation?
Same question about 1982's Colecovision... it's a clear and significant step up, again... is this a new generation?

Then the NES (1984 in Japan). Is this a new generation? What is a 'new generation'? It requires more than simply better graphics; the Sega Master System has better graphics than the NES but did not create a new generation.

Then the next generation is clear... Genesis, Turbografx, and SNES... but then... are the 3D0 and Jaguar (1993) of that generation, or next-gen consoles? Next-gen I guess... but that would mean that that generation started in 1993, while the most popular console in the generation came out in late 1995 in the US (PSX)... and the 3D0 was technologically behind within a few years -- it hit before some big upgrades in 3D technology I believe... etc.

Things get much easier to understand for the last generation. :) DC, GC, XBox, and PS2... very clear. This gen is the same... PS3, Rev, X360... kind of nice really, to have a clear dividing line, instead of all that mess...


Yes, launching a year behind a massively popular console is bad. But launching a year before one doesn't help much more. Not that the X360 will totally fail... sure, it could win. But that will be based on the games, and the performance of the PS3 and Revolution, not based on the fact that the X360 launched first. For instance, the Super Nintendo beat the Genesis, despite launching two years later...

As for costs, obviously MS has nowhere to go but up... Xbox was a terrible failure moneymaking-wise, can't get much worse than that...



Kiosks. I can't say, haven't been to any gaming stores with one since the X360 came out.

Advertising. I don't watch cable TV, and only rarely read console gaming magazines, and didn't see any on network TV, so all I can say is, their online hype machine seemed to be going pretty well...

Launch games, US. The three first party titles look great. The other stuff is a mixed bag though... some terrible sports games, some barely-touched more expensive repackagings of Xbox games, etc... but still, a large lineup good enough to make it worth it if you have the money, it seems to me. Eighteen games total.

Launch games, Europe... not sure what they got... over 10 games though?

Launch games, Japan. Terrible. Six games... no PGR3, no Kameo, no DOA3, no Japanese games other than Ridge Racer 6... no wonder people didn't buy it, Ridge Racer 6 and PDZ (a game in a genre unpopular in Japan) were the only good games?

Global launch within three weeks... good idea for marketing. Good idea in concept. Bad in execution because it made the extremely limited supplies of the console even more limited. I think that they had 320,000 consoles for US launch. They sold that many in November... virtually all on day one. Then none were in stores for a month (recently some stores did get restocked I think). Ouch. When there are no consoles to sell, you can't sell them... so, for its first month, the X360 only sold 320,000 consoles -- compared to over 500,000 for the first month of the Xbox in the US. Europe? Same major problem with not enough supply. Japan had enough supply, but that's only because of low demand... maybe if they'd held off on the Japanese launch until DOA4 came out? :)

Oh yes, and EBay said a while ago that they'd (re)sold over 30,000 X360s... about 1/10th of the total launch supply... for far more than $300 or $400. Says something about how hard they are to get.

I'm not even sure Dead or Alive 4 is out yet, nevermind that other games like Blue Dragon (was on the Famitsu most-wanted list), Lost Odyssey, Every Party, Ninety Nine Nights, Enchant Arm, and others won't be available until sometime in 2006.

Every Party was a launch game (but didn't sell much)... other than that none of those other games are out yet.

The faulty hardware. I don't know all the facts, and I'm not sure what the actual failure rate is but I do know that this has been one of the worst launches in the regard of faulty hardware. Overheating, crashing, scratching discs...I'm actually quite surprised that people are still buying them over ebay for multiple times what they're worth just to have it now.

Launches always have problems, and I don't think that the problems are worse this time than usual...

[Paco]

Hmm... I'd say that they were very successful, in the US and Europe... until it came time to actually make the systems fast enough. Their haste to get the system out did not work with their production schedule, and the massive console shortage that resulted is predictable. Really, they should have waited. Getting out first isn't overrated... it's rated as not mattering much. Who won this generation? The second console. Who won the one before that? The second to fourth console, depending on how you count the 3D0 and Jaguar. Who won the one before that? The third console. Before that? ... well it gets a bit harder to define specific generation lines from the first consoles until 1985... the NES was perhaps the first of its generation, depending on how you look at it, but I could argue that several ways... anyway, the first console has no lasting history of victory. Well, the Atari 2600 was first of its generation and won, and the NES was if you say it was a new generation... but since then, the first console hasn't won. Why should that change now, and why does Microsoft think it'll help?

Getting the developers on board and having them stay is really important if Microsoft wants to compete with Sony for king of the video game hill. The next playstation is a no brainer for developers, consumers are going to buy it in droves. I think it was crucial that Microsoft not make the Xbox 360 a second thought, and getting out first was important to make that happen. As someone suggested (Dark Jaguar?), the question is whether they'll stay or not. If Microsoft can stay ahead of the PS3 long enough then it was a good move afterall.

Oh yes, and EBay said a while ago that they'd (re)sold over 30,000 X360s... about 1/10th of the total launch supply... for far more than $300 or $400. Says something about how hard they are to get.

I know, and it makes me regret not preordering one. Most 360's were going in the 1000's. That's just ridiculous. I'm hoping the same situation happens with the PS3, I'm alread on some pre-order lists.:D

Every Party was a launch game (but didn't sell much)... other than that none of those other games are out yet.

I didn't see any mention of it. I was actually interested in it (I love party games).

Launches always have problems, and I don't think that the problems are worse this time than usual...

Perhaps this one is just more publicized than others. I remember all the PSP problems but even that seemed like less of a deal than this launch.

[A Black Falcon]

I didn't see any mention of it. I was actually interested in it (I love party games).

Japanese launch title, not US, I meant... :)

Perhaps this one is just more publicized than others. I remember all the PSP problems but even that seemed like less of a deal than this launch.

Doesn't every Sony launch have problems? :)

Getting the developers on board and having them stay is really important if Microsoft wants to compete with Sony for king of the video game hill. The next playstation is a no brainer for developers, consumers are going to buy it in droves. I think it was crucial that Microsoft not make the Xbox 360 a second thought, and getting out first was important to make that happen. As someone suggested (Dark Jaguar?), the question is whether they'll stay or not. If Microsoft can stay ahead of the PS3 long enough then it was a good move afterall.

And now they're going to get some support, but do you really think that it'll mean that they'll be calling the shots and not Sony once the PS3 comes out? Sony will only lose if it defeats itsself -- not because of whatever MS does.

[Paco]

And now they're going to get some support, but do you really think that it'll mean that they'll be calling the shots and not Sony once the PS3 comes out? Sony will only lose if it defeats itsself -- not because of whatever MS does.

Not at all. What I do think will happen is that developers will already have experience with the 360 and it would make sense to utilize whatever assets they've created for more games, provided their games sold well on the 360. If developers can enjoy as much success on the 360 as they could on a PS3, which is possible if there is a large userbase, then Sony won't be calling the shots either. (I always thought it was up to the developers and publishers where their games were going anyway.)

[Weltall]

Here's my take:

I think Microsoft borrowed a page from Sony's book by creating an artificial shortage to increase demand to a fever pitch. I don't believe Microsoft's denial of this charge anymore than I believed Sony's denial of the same charge five years ago. It's working. From my own personal experience, the supply is many times greater than demand. However, I also have to think that a lot of them are being fickle... you have to factor in how many people were doing what I did, buying the machine just to sell it for a huge profit (I ended up getting $750 cash for my Core). It's very hard to tell what kind of impact this will end up having. The PS2's sales continued to be strong because the quality of software, at worst, remained steady and constant, and within six months of the launch, the first round of killer apps started to appear, led by Gran Turismo 3.

PS2 also didn't face very stiff competition. The Dreamcast folded almost immediately, nobody really expected much competition from Nintendo (justifiably), and the Xbox was a completely unknown quantity. Xbox launches early, but might it end up being the Dreamcast in the end? I mean, it won't flinch nearly as bad as Sega, Microsoft's got the muscles Sega never had, but the PS3 is going to be very hard to stop, and it doesn't really matter what the technology spells in the end. It didn't last time. It will come down to market presence and mindshare. There's no denying which company has long held a virtual monopoly on both, and I think it will show.

[Great Rumbler]

There's lots of spare Xbox360s in Japan.

[A Black Falcon]

Japan:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6141161.html
159,000 units shipped. 61,000 (or perhaps 41,000, by another report...) sold in the first two days -- "slightly slow." Console-to-game sales ratio of 0.91 -- that means almost one in ten people have the console but no games... says something about how pitiful that six game lineup was there.

Expect the launch consoles, at least, to sell by the time DOA4 comes out...

[Paco]

I wonder if Microsoft still expects to sell one million in Japan by the summer? Judging by the launch I'd say that's a really tall order. I think that it's entirely possible considering that Dead or Alive 3 went on to sell over 200,000 units in Japan on the original Xbox. A few more Japanese-centric games from acclaimed developers could make the 360 a success (not a Playstation or Nintendo success over there, but not a Xbox like disaster). Then again, the PS3 is supposedly due in March or April over there and I have every reason to believe it will hurt MS quite a bit. It'll be interesting.

[A Black Falcon]

MS is definitely making more effort this time... they've actually got Japanese developers working on RPGs or RPG-ish games for the thing. :) Of course I'm sure MS helped fund the development, but if it works...


Artificial shortage: It is possible, but I doubt it now... the sheer scale of the shortage makes me question it. I mean, if they were somewhat hard to find... yeah. But this hard? Does it really help MS to have them just sell 320,000 units in month one, when people can look and see that the original Xbox sold over 500,000 in month one? I don't think so...


MS compared to Sega... the money says no. :) That is, Microsoft's money, versus Sega's distinct lack of it...

[lazyfatbum]

The launch is a definite success in America. But if I were the president of MS's game division i'd be putting 50% of the company in the development of Halo 3 and it's ad-campaign and 50% of the company in to R&D for new, exclusive franchises based on radical types of gameplay. MS needs a mascot and I dont mean Pit-Pat the pan-sexual marketing thing.

Nintendo has like 40 of them, Sega has Sonic, Sony tried and tried but their best mascot was actually Resident Evil characters and Final Fantasy and now, Metal gear Solid and GTA and MS has... a dead guy. Woo! Halo's okay but Halo is one genre, it has no spice. MGS has all kinds of gaming elements, Halo has one. Mario is usually a tour de force of the system's capabilities with every type of gameplay you could imagine, Halo has one. They tried and failed horribly with Blinx (Sonic's and Crash's bastard child who was raised by Mario) and then you have DOA which is a pretty suck boob-fighter and I seriously doubt Kameo is going to be eaten up by frat houses around the nation. As Smoke put it: "Oh I cant wait to play that game where you're a girl that turns in to a boxing plant!" So yeah, not gonna fly with MS crowd.

MS desperately needs a killer app right now if they want to keep all those customers they just got.

[Smoke]

The launch was a success in North America, a flop in Japan. They should have allocated the Japanese Xbox 360's to North America and launched later in Japan. I don't think there's any chance of the Xbox ever being a real contender in Japan so it doesn't really make any difference over there but having more Xbox 360s would have really helped here. I think the Japanese developed games will actually help more in the west than in Japan. There's a lot of people in the west who like those types of games and one of the complaints about the original Xbox was that it didn't have many JRPG's.

[lazyfatbum]

Yeah alot of guys in the game development part of my school stayed away from XBox because of the lack of Japanese games (RPG's mostly) and the ones who did buy in to XBox were just looking for Halo matches. Slowly it caught on that EA, Ubi etc were spending more time in R&D for XBox multi-console games than they were for GC or PS2, so people started getting XBox for the 'better' versions of all the US developed games. Remember the Splinter Cell fiasco and when Turok Evolutions hit? GC and PS2 got the short end of the stick while the XBox version shined but no one cared because the only versions that were sold at mass were the GC and PS2 versions... and sold back to pawn shops and used game stores within the first week of its release. :D

The XBox is still a Halo machine and it has that market cornered, they're trying to expand with 360 and as of right now, reading the views and opinions from boards and sites of people who weren't a part of the XBox era, people are basically asking 'When does it get good?' The answer will hopefully come when the Japanese support kicks in. But then it becomes a question of how long will that support last.

Jdevs wont stick around a console waiting for it to blossom. If sales dont balloon with a noticeable profit when they release a game it's back to the tried and true 'Put it on a Playstation'.

[Paco]

I don't think it's crucial that the 360 get a killer app right now. The PS2 released in Japan without a killer app, and then in the U.S. in the same situation. Some good and great titles, but no killer app. It wasn't until Spring of 2001 that the first system seller came out, Devil May Cry. Then another hit followed that summer, Gran Turismo 3. Then it was the fall/winter of 2001 when Metal Gear Solid 2, Grand Theft Auto 3, Jak & Daxter, and Final Fantasy X landed. This is how all launches, and the following months, go; it's just slow at first. I can't think of a single console that could be considered the exception.

Microsoft is in the position that they are the only ones in the race right now, and they can afford to have a slow start because there's nowhere else to go at the moment as far as next-gen goes. If the 360 doesn't have a healthy lineup or killer app by this time next year then there might be some trouble, but seeing as how Gears of War is on the horizon, and in all likely hood Halo 3 will be out for the competition launches, I say 360 will have it's killer app, or two. I also see a bunch of potential great games for 2006 (all those JRPGs, Capcom's Lost Planet, Ninety Nine Nights, Full Auto), then into 2007 (Mass Effect, Too Human), and then all the unknown releases (Jade Empire 2, Rare's new titles, Forza 2, Fable 2, Ninja Gaiden 2). Then the third party releases of popular games like Burnout, Resident Evil 5, and Splinter Cell.

It's been out for a whole month, less in other countries, and people are already asking when it gets good? I'll take it this is their first launch they've ever been through, and you should advise them to sit tight for at least 6 months. This is the price you pay for adopting new technology. If they expect anything different from Sony then they are dreaming. And going by Nintendo's past launches, there will be a killer game or two at first then slim pickings for several months...but they obviously don't know that or they wouldn't bring up such an issue in the first place.

Not that there's nothing to enjoy on the 360. The game lineup is strong, no killer app but solid none the less. Xbox Live has received nothing but rave reviews with its downloadable content, demos, arcade games, and, of course, online play. I'd say Xbox Live Arcade has been the standout feature so far, and Microsoft is committed to it, and from an article I read during the summer, so are developers.

As for the Kameo comment. Of every impression I've heard from parents I've only heard their kids love Kameo. It appeals to an audience Microsoft needs to tap into if they really want to broaden their appeal. Only thing is that I really don't see another Kameo-like game anywhere in sight. I'm hoping Rare reveals a new Banjo though. So, yeah, Microsoft obviously didn't have the frat houses in mind when they okayed Kameo.

[lazyfatbum]

Cant think of a console that launched with a system seller, eh? :D I can think of about 10... :D

My nephew is 12 and he says the kids at school are pooping all over Kameo because it's 'not mature' and most of them are waiting for PS3. The young crowd is also saying that the Revolution is a total joke and the controller is gay. I explained to my nephew's friends that it's a 3-D controller and then they were interested but still say that PS3 is going to be 'the console to get'. Everyone I know who has a PSP barely play it and when they do, they play that puzzle game all because there's no killer app. If MS isn't careful they'll hit the same wall. MS unleashed PDZ into a Halo public and what happens? People complain. Kameo isn't selling well either and that WW2 game is the only one selling close to a 1:1 ratio with the system which is getting lackluster reviews.

XBox launched with Halo and grabbed a close 3rd place in the race which it kept and sometimes exceeded, especially when Halo 2 was released. 360 NEEDS Halo 3 or a new system seller ASAP otherwise Ebay is going to explode with 360's for sale again when PS3 hits.

[Weltall]

Killer App at launch?

Super Mario 64.

[Paco]

Cant think of a console that launched with a system seller, eh? :D I can think of about 10... :D

You're not reading my posts very carefully. What I was getting at is that all consoles are slow at first when it comes to the games' release. Nintendo is certainly no exception here. And what I meant with the lack of a killer app at launch is that it's entirely possible to pull through and succeed later (look at PS1 and PS2 for examples).

My nephew is 12 and he says the kids at school are pooping all over Kameo because it's 'not mature' and most of them are waiting for PS3. The young crowd is also saying that the Revolution is a total joke and the controller is gay. I explained to my nephew's friends that it's a 3-D controller and then they were interested but still say that PS3 is going to be 'the console to get'. Everyone I know who has a PSP barely play it and when they do, they play that puzzle game all because there's no killer app. If MS isn't careful they'll hit the same wall. MS unleashed PDZ into a Halo public and what happens? People complain. Kameo isn't selling well either and that WW2 game is the only one selling close to a 1:1 ratio with the system which is getting lackluster reviews.

So you talked to a 12 year old who probably thinks he's closer to 18. Would you care to talk to my little cousins who range anywhere from 5 to 9? They all said it was really cool. Kameo was not meant for everyone, but I'd say it has its own audience. I figured you'd be able to respect that seeing as how you're such a Nintendo buff.

Call of Duty 2 got lackluster reviews? Care to show me one? If by lackluster you mean 8's and 9's then I say you need to check your standards because you'd be crapping on quite a few Nintendo made titles too.

When did you get Kameo sales? I haven't seen any myself, but I am curious.

XBox launched with Halo and grabbed a close 3rd place in the race which it kept and sometimes exceeded, especially when Halo 2 was released. 360 NEEDS Halo 3 or a new system seller ASAP otherwise Ebay is going to explode with 360's for sale again when PS3 hits.

Xbox sold 22+ million last I checked. Gamecube hasn't broken 20+ million as far as I know. Xbox - 2nd place, Gamecube - 3rd place...

"However, as of February 2005, estimates show the Xbox's share of the worldwide console market is only moderately ahead of the Nintendo GameCube and far behind the PlayStation 2. According to company documents, Microsoft has shipped 22 million consoles to retailers worldwide. [8] Although ahead of the GameCube's 18.5 million [9], this is far behind the PlayStation 2's 100 million [10]. The Xbox has enjoyed its greatest success in North America, where an estimated 13.5 million units have been sold and where it managed for a time to outsell the PS2[11]. In Europe, the Xbox's market share is currently ahead of the GameCube, but is still behind the PlayStation 2."

"Nintendo reported that as of March 2005 they have sold a total of 18.5 million Nintendo Gamecube units worldwide. [9]"

Seeing as how Nintendo's Gamecube sales continue on the decline I very much doubt they made up 4 million consoles to surpass the Xbox in 2005. Link and Link.

It's a marathon, not a sprint. These first few months are not important. The end of 2006 is important- when Revolution and PS3 supposedly launch, but I'd put far more weight on 2007 seeing as how that's when all three consoles should be out for the entire year. That's when the 360 needs to shine, when it's demoed right next to the competition. What's even more important than that is who can get to the mass market first, that's where the console sales really take off. It's more than likely that 360 will have a killer app or two by this time next year, but we'll wait and see.

Like I said, those who think PS3 is going to be their saving grace at launch are in for a sore disappoinment. The PS and PS2 were not known for their launches, and usually took quite a bit of time to get several killer apps released. I'll say they'll regret selling their 360 for a PS3 launch because it should be that time when the 360 hits its stride and casually walks right into 2007 while the Revolution and PS3 go through their dry periods following launch.

[Great Rumbler]

According to company documents, Microsoft has shipped 22 million consoles to retailers worldwide.

"Nintendo reported that as of March 2005 they have sold a total of 18.5 million Nintendo Gamecube units worldwide."

Corporate double-speak. Always read press releases twice.

[Paco]

I did read them twice, even three times. I just didn't bother to edit my sentence before the quotes. I very much doubt there are millions of unsold Xboxes right now, and I still doubt that Nintendo sold 4 million between that press release and now. The article does confirm that Xbox has more market share than the Gamecube in both the U.S. and Europe, even if only a slight lead.

[lazyfatbum]

Yes a console that completely failed in an entire region outsold the Gamecube. Keep thinking that.

Okay let's look at PS1 and 2 as examples. *puts on glasses* woo look at all that Japanese support. Hey I wonder if that Japanese support and the fact that they had a few months of time in Japan before hitting the states had anything to do with their successes at launch?

So you talked to a 12 year old who probably thinks he's closer to 18. Would you care to talk to my little cousins who range anywhere from 5 to 9? They all said it was really cool. Kameo was not meant for everyone, but I'd say it has its own audience. I figured you'd be able to respect that seeing as how you're such a Nintendo buff.

Please help me understand this post. Let's put aside the fact that Kameo's a teen rated game that your 9 and 5 year old family members want to play: Becase you assume my nephew thinks he's 18 you think he wont enjoy Kameo (which he has interest in) and then go on to say that a game targeted at children will have an audience on a system from a company that has never targeted children before, ever (including Kameo)?

I apologize that was a bad choice of words on my part, the 'reviews' i'm talking about are from the younger crowds (12 to 15) who are more 'PDZ' oriented (more interested in shooters rather than simulators). I wasn't talking about actual game site reviews.

Kameo sales data:

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9943/NPD-G...20-%20Xbox

You are an insane dwarf, i'm not even trying to bash any company and yet here you are in defense mode arguing things that have nothing to do with the context of the discussion.

[Paco]

Yes a console that completely failed in an entire region outsold the Gamecube. Keep thinking that.

I don't have to think, the numbers are there and don't leave much open for interpretation.

Okay let's look at PS1 and 2 as examples. *puts on glasses* woo look at all that Japanese support. Hey I wonder if that Japanese support and the fact that they had a few months of time in Japan before hitting the states had anything to do with their successes at launch?

You must not have kept up with the PS1 or PS2 launch. There were a number of games at launch but neither Playstation has launched with a so-called killer app. As usual, there were a number of games at launch, several in the months following (the dry period), and then several killer apps land about 12-18 months after the console has been out. Why, oh why, should Xbox 360 need to follow a different schedule in order to avoid doomsday? They'll be fine, better than fine, just watch.

Going by the same schedule that every console seems to follow, it seems reasonable to think that when the PS3 and Revolution launch then Xbox 360 will have it's second generation games and most likely a killer app or two, all while PS3 and Revolution go through their launch phase. Not to mention there will probably be a price drop and plenty of consoles to go around next holiday while the PS3 inevitably has a shortage and people overlook the Revolution because it's from Nintendo. Oh, and there will probably be a platinum priced game or two as well...probably more. I'd say they are in a great position. Again, these first few months just aren't that important in the long run.

I've never seen a console, in the past twenty years, hit the ground running with a steady stream of games or killer apps. It's a five+ year affair, and it usually isn't until the second or third year when a console really starts to hit its stride in terms of sales and games. You disagree? If not, then why do you insist that Xbox 360 needs a killer app right now? If so, explain, with examples, how Xbox 360 is already a lost cause or that it's long-term success is effected. I'm not arguing that it wouldn't help, because that would be stupid. Of course it would help, but I question how important a killer app really is this early in the game...especially when there aren't any other players in the game.

Please help me understand this post. Let's put aside the fact that Kameo's a teen rated game that your 9 and 5 year old family members want to play: Becase you assume my nephew thinks he's 18 you think he wont enjoy Kameo (which he has interest in) and then go on to say that a game targeted at children will have an audience on a system from a company that has never targeted children before, ever (including Kameo)?

Yeah, let's just forget that children also want to play Grand Theft Auto and Soul Calibur or Ratchet & Clank and Jak & Daxter...all Teen and Mature rated games. What were you getting at?

You obviously haven't payed any attention to what J Allard or Robby Bach or anyone else at Microsoft have been saying, let me fill you in. Their first outting is when they targetted Sony's demographic. The 18-35 crowd, and they've been moderately successful. They realize, however, that there is a bigger crowd out there and one they could possibly reach given the right image and games. Why do you think they changed the color of the console to the off-white color? Why do you think they created two sku's? Why do you think they are completely behind Xbox Live Arcade? It's a multi-faceted approach to gain more gamers ranging all ages. They want to retain their hardcore crowd that bought the Xbox, that's why the harddrive is there. They want a more casual crowd, and the people who play games for a few minutes at a time, that's why Xbox Live Arcade is so important. They want to appeal to a younger demographic and that's why games like Kameo are important. You think a new Banjo game won't sell to the 7-17 crowd?

There are alot of potential buyers out there, Microsoft is trying to get their attention. Surely you, even though you're squarely focused on Nintendo, have noticed that the 360 image and treatment is entirely different than the original Xbox? If they were just going after the same 18-35 crowd, don't you think they would have kept it black, kept the harddrive, given Kameo more of an edge, etc? Think on that.

I apologize that was a bad choice of words on my part, the 'reviews' i'm talking about are from the younger crowds (12 to 15) who are more 'PDZ' oriented (more interested in shooters rather than simulators). I wasn't talking about actual game site reviews.

COD2 is a simulator? Last I checked it was a shooter...yes, I'm pretty sure what I played was a shooter.

Where are your reviews for the 18-35+ crowd?

Kameo sales data:

[url="http://news.teamxbox.com[/url]

Xbox 360's sold in November: 325,902
Kameo, units sold in November: 73,801

It sold to almost a third of the people who bought a 360 in November. How is that bad?

Considering that a game like Halo sold to less than 1/4th the installed user base of the Xbox, or that Grand Theft Auto sold to less than 1/5th of the PS2 base...yeah, think on that.

You are an insane dwarf, i'm not even trying to bash any company and yet here you are in defense mode arguing things that have nothing to do with the context of the discussion.

I see you're getting frustrated, resorting to petty name calling and (I must say) poor insults. You think I being defensive when all I'm doing is disagreeing with you. I see your arguements as largely bias (you yourself admit to being a Nintendo fanboy) and mostly nonsense. I was actually quite surprised you even came in this thread, seeing as how I started it, and I was quietly hoping that you would just stay out so the thread doesn't get ruined. You're almost as bad as OB1 in the sense that you don't give anyone else's word any value. You argue with everyone and stand steadfast even when a sensible arguement no more speculative or no less supported is presented. I'm not talking of myself but of every thread I've seen you in and with some of the other members.

[lazyfatbum]

lmao

Do you... actually read what you type? I'm just curious.

1.) Going by the same numbers, you could say that the PSP has an installed user base of about 10 million. Which they dont. They shipped about 10 million units worlwide so far (which means the stores purchased those units) but the actual consumers have purchased about half that number.

You must not have kept up with the PS1 or PS2 launch. There were a number of games at launch but neither Playstation has launched with a so-called killer app. As usual, there were a number of games at launch, several in the months following (the dry period), and then several killer apps land about 12-18 months after the console has been out. Why, oh why, should Xbox 360 need to follow a different schedule in order to avoid doomsday? They'll be fine, better than fine, just watch.

2.) 360 doesn't have anywhere near the Japanese support that Playstation has.

Going by the same schedule that every console seems to follow, it seems reasonable to think that when the PS3 and Revolution launch then Xbox 360 will have it's second generation games and most likely a killer app or two, all while PS3 and Revolution go through their launch phase. Not to mention there will probably be a price drop and plenty of consoles to go around next holiday while the PS3 inevitably has a shortage and people overlook the Revolution because it's from Nintendo. Oh, and there will probably be a platinum priced game or two as well...probably more. I'd say they are in a great position. Again, these first few months just aren't that important in the long run.

3.) It's funny how you assume things and yet deny other assumptions from other people. Revolution is going to launch with killer apps even if its killer app is Zelda: PT. The PS3 looks as though it's going to launch with a Final Fantasy game. Now depending on which system launches near Christmas, there will be the same rush to grab it as there was with 360 because it's a hot holiday item and as with any console, it's longesvity on the 'it' factor has everything to do with the game's available for the system.

I've never seen a console, in the past twenty years, hit the ground running with a steady stream of games or killer apps. It's a five+ year affair, and it usually isn't until the second or third year when a console really starts to hit its stride in terms of sales and games. You disagree? If not, then why do you insist that Xbox 360 needs a killer app right now? If so, explain, with examples, how Xbox 360 is already a lost cause or that it's long-term success is effected. I'm not arguing that it wouldn't help, because that would be stupid. Of course it would help, but I question how important a killer app really is this early in the game...especially when there aren't any other players in the game.

4.) Aren't any other players? Didn't you read the sales data that you posted? Weren't you the one talking about installed user bases, etc? Anyway, all systems need a killer app. The N64 and GC survived on killer apps alone with almost no third party support while the PS2 rocketed to first place because of sheer number of games from every third party in the market. if the 360 had better Japanese support I could see why it wouldn't need a killer app but just as they did with XBox 1 they rode the wave of sales Halo and Halo 2 which, as a system with lackluster Japanese support, made the smart decision in finding a killer app for the American market.

Yeah, let's just forget that children also want to play Grand Theft Auto and Soul Calibur or Ratchet & Clank and Jak & Daxter...all Teen and Mature rated games. What were you getting at?

5.) Obviously you didn't watch any younglings in the mall getting ID'd trying to buy T and M games. My wife got ID'd buying RE4 lmao. The stores are starting to crackdown and from a business perspective and for the sake of argument we will call a game that is made for the younger crowds an E rated game.

You obviously haven't payed any attention to what J Allard or Robby Bach or anyone else at Microsoft have been saying, let me fill you in. Their first outting is when they targetted Sony's demographic. The 18-35 crowd, and they've been moderately successful. They realize, however, that there is a bigger crowd out there and one they could possibly reach given the right image and games. Why do you think they changed the color of the console to the off-white color? Why do you think they created two sku's? Why do you think they are completely behind Xbox Live Arcade? It's a multi-faceted approach to gain more gamers ranging all ages. They want to retain their hardcore crowd that bought the Xbox, that's why the harddrive is there. They want a more casual crowd, and the people who play games for a few minutes at a time, that's why Xbox Live Arcade is so important. They want to appeal to a younger demographic and that's why games like Kameo are important. You think a new Banjo game won't sell to the 7-17 crowd?

There are alot of potential buyers out there, Microsoft is trying to get their attention. Surely you, even though you're squarely focused on Nintendo, have noticed that the 360 image and treatment is entirely different than the original Xbox? If they were just going after the same 18-35 crowd, don't you think they would have kept it black, kept the harddrive, given Kameo more of an edge, etc? Think on that.

6.) If they released a Banjo game on 360 it would be a massacre. Look at what happened to Grabbed by the Ghoulies (developed by the Banjo team). I think it would sell if it were rated T but by doing that, they are removing children from the demographic. A T rated game is not for all ages senor paco. ...now please explain why a hard drive and the system's color have anything to do with demopgraphic...?

COD2 is a simulator? Last I checked it was a shooter...yes, I'm pretty sure what I played was a shooter.

Where are your reviews for the 18-35+ crowd?

7.) .....okay, you dont seriously think that a wartime FPS that is striving for realism is a 'shooter' in the same vein as PDZ? Do you honestly think that? That's like comparing Starfox to a WW2 flight sim. Onei s abviously going for arcade style shootemups while the other is going for dramatic realism.

So far in the 18+ crowd i've heard alot of mixed reviews, it seems to be one of those love it or hate it kind of games with no middle ground. COD (and it's sequels and other games of its type) fall flat with people who aren't military buffs. Now I am a military buff but I dont enjoy the 'simulator' aspects of these type of games. I want the arcade type of gameplay in my FPS games like Timesplitters, PDZ, etc.

Xbox 360's sold in November: 325,902
Kameo, units sold in November: 73,801

It sold to almost a third of the people who bought a 360 in November. How is that bad?

Considering that a game like Halo sold to less than 1/4th the installed user base of the Xbox, or that Grand Theft Auto sold to less than 1/5th of the PS2 base...yeah, think on that.

8.) It is the lowest selling first party game escpecially when you consider that COD 2 sold 250,730 units. Your ratio ideal doesn't really pan out when you consider a console that has an installed user base in the millions. Of course, i'm only assuming that your ratios are correct which seem odd to me considering that everyone I know with an XBox has Halo and everyone I know with a PS2 have a GTA game. But ultimately it doesn't matter, a game selling well over 200 thousand and a game that didn't even break 100 thousand; There is clearly something to be said about the popularity of the game.

I see you're getting frustrated, resorting to petty name calling and (I must say) poor insults.

9.) lmao... I called you a dwarf, i had no idea anyone would actually take offense to that. It was a light hearted comment. ...are you a dwarf? or "little person"? If you are obviously I would have no idea of such a thing. But if I offended you I apologize, it wasn't my goal.

You think I being defensive when all I'm doing is disagreeing with you.

10) Hahaha :D

I see your arguements as largely bias (you yourself admit to being a Nintendo fanboy) and mostly nonsense. I was actually quite surprised you even came in this thread, seeing as how I started it, and I was quietly hoping that you would just stay out so the thread doesn't get ruined. You're almost as bad as OB1 in the sense that you don't give anyone else's word any value. You argue with everyone and stand steadfast even when a sensible arguement no more speculative or no less supported is presented. I'm not talking of myself but of every thread I've seen you in and with some of the other members.

11.) Well that's definitely something i'll have to take in to consideration however I think you're taking things a bit out of context. Yes I can admit to being a Nintendo fanboy however I dont think you'll admit to being an Xbot. I haven't seen you say anything positive about Nintendo but you praise Microsoft up to heaven as if they can do no wrong. You start a thread asking for people's opinions and then when you get them you throw a tantrum. One very large factor is the lack of Japanese support or killer app which you seem to think (looking at your first post) is something to factor in but when I mention it as an important factor to resolve you tell a different story, that it doesn't matter to the longevity of a console which I hope you have a better idea of now. You have a very odd double standard at play and you seem to completely miss the boat on the simple fact that this is a Nintendo message board and people are going to be more judgemental when it comes to 'other' consoles just as you are more judgemental towards Nintendo and more leanient with MS.

I guess what i'm saying is if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Dont ask for opinions or feedback if you dont actually want it. When those opinions hit, even if sorely negative, you have to realize it comes with the territory and hopefully (unless the person is just trying to be a dick) will offer a view point you hand't previously considered which, i'm assuming, was the point of this thread.

[Paco]

lmao

Do you... actually read what you type? I'm just curious.

I do.

1.) Going by the same numbers, you could say that the PSP has an installed user base of about 10 million. Which they dont. They shipped about 10 million units worlwide so far (which means the stores purchased those units) but the actual consumers have purchased about half that number.

Did you read what I quoted, or venture into the link? The source says that Xbox has more market share, and the numbers support that. Deal with it.

2.) 360 doesn't have anywhere near the Japanese support that Playstation has.

The original playstation didn't start out with the japanese support it has now. Besides, it doesn't matter. All that Japanese support still didn't have a killer app at either launch in any territory.

3.) It's funny how you assume things and yet deny other assumptions from other people. Revolution is going to launch with killer apps even if its killer app is Zelda: PT. The PS3 looks as though it's going to launch with a Final Fantasy game. Now depending on which system launches near Christmas, there will be the same rush to grab it as there was with 360 because it's a hot holiday item and as with any console, it's longesvity on the 'it' factor has everything to do with the game's available for the system.

Have you ever been through a console launch? Bought a console at launch and then went through that 6-8 months after launch when few and far games come out? Anything other than an Nintendo console? (Serious question)

4.) Aren't any other players? Didn't you read the sales data that you posted? Weren't you the one talking about installed user bases, etc? Anyway, all systems need a killer app. The N64 and GC survived on killer apps alone with almost no third party support while the PS2 rocketed to first place because of sheer number of games from every third party in the market. if the 360 had better Japanese support I could see why it wouldn't need a killer app but just as they did with XBox 1 they rode the wave of sales Halo and Halo 2 which, as a system with lackluster Japanese support, made the smart decision in finding a killer app for the American market.

PS3 installed user base = 0
Revolution installed user base = 0
Get it?

Wow, now I know you're not reading my posts very carefully. I didn't say killer apps weren't necessary. I said precisely the opposite, however I don't think they are absolutely necessary right in the beginning.

Okay, you're going to have to fill me in as to what Japanese made games made the Playstation and Playstation 2 float along without their killer apps. I don't recall any standout games whatsoever, but it seems you're putting alot of stock in them. Care to share what you're thinking?

5.) Obviously you didn't watch any younglings in the mall getting ID'd trying to buy T and M games. My wife got ID'd buying RE4 lmao. The stores are starting to crackdown and from a business perspective and for the sake of argument we will call a game that is made for the younger crowds an E rated game.

That doesn't stop the kids from wanting them, or mom and dad buying it.

6.) If they released a Banjo game on 360 it would be a massacre. Look at what happened to Grabbed by the Ghoulies (developed by the Banjo team). I think it would sell if it were rated T but by doing that, they are removing children from the demographic. A T rated game is not for all ages senor paco. ...now please explain why a hard drive and the system's color have anything to do with demopgraphic...?

You obviously didn't follow any of what Microsoft said over the past year, and it seems you don't want to take my word for it. I'll just tell you that you're assumption that Microsoft is only targeting the mature crowd is dead wrong.

Jesus Christ, you can't be that absorbed in Nintendo that you didn't notice anything of any other console...

The HDD in the original Xbox appealed to a tech-crowd. The fact that it was the most powerful and the usual black color of electronics all appealed to a certain crowd, as did the games- 18-35+

The HDD appeals to those who intend on going all out with their Xbox, the supposed hardcore who want to save music, games, and venture onto Xbox Live for all its worth. Then there is the other offer of a bare console for those who don't care, and don't want to spend the money on something they won't use, and just want the games. It's a two pronged approach. Keeping up? Good. The color; When they were doing research and surveys on the color and name, the off-white color appealed to the most people, and most prefered the 360 name as opposed to other choices (which I can't remember). Did you even notice that the new logo is a different font? No hard edges.

If there's anything you will take I hope you will take my word that Microsoft is really trying to appeal to more than the 18-35 crowd. Need more support? Do you remember that comment about reaching one billion gamers? Growing the market? Yes? No?

7.) .....okay, you dont seriously think that a wartime FPS that is striving for realism is a 'shooter' in the same vein as PDZ? Do you honestly think that? That's like comparing Starfox to a WW2 flight sim. Onei s abviously going for arcade style shootemups while the other is going for dramatic realism.

It's a FPS, and hardly a simulator.

8.) It is the lowest selling first party game escpecially when you consider that COD 2 sold 250,730 units. Your ratio ideal doesn't really pan out when you consider a console that has an installed user base in the millions. Of course, i'm only assuming that your ratios are correct which seem odd to me considering that everyone I know with an XBox has Halo and everyone I know with a PS2 have a GTA game. But ultimately it doesn't matter, a game selling well over 200 thousand and a game that didn't even break 100 thousand; There is clearly something to be said about the popularity of the game.

Xbox installed user base = 22 million
Halo and Halo 2 sales = about 13 million last I heard. Assuming everyone who bought the original Halo came back for the sequal that breaks down to about 6.5 million for each game. I'll trust you can finish the math.

PS2 installed user base = 100 million
Grand Theft Auto = Last I read, each game has achieved about 15 million.
Gran Turismo = same thing, A-Spec did about 14-15 million.

Some games don't ever achieve 73,000 units. Kameo did that in eight days, and to a very small user base. Give it some time before you call it a failure in any respect.

9.) lmao... I called you a dwarf, i had no idea anyone would actually take offense to that. It was a light hearted comment. ...are you a dwarf? or "little person"? If you are obviously I would have no idea of such a thing. But if I offended you I apologize, it wasn't my goal.

I'm 6'0, not a dwarf.

11.) Well that's definitely something i'll have to take in to consideration however I think you're taking things a bit out of context. Yes I can admit to being a Nintendo fanboy however I dont think you'll admit to being an Xbot. I haven't seen you say anything positive about Nintendo but you praise Microsoft up to heaven as if they can do no wrong. You start a thread asking for people's opinions and then when you get them you throw a tantrum. One very large factor is the lack of Japanese support or killer app which you seem to think (looking at your first post) is something to factor in but when I mention it as an important factor to resolve you tell a different story, that it doesn't matter to the longevity of a console which I hope you have a better idea of now. You have a very odd double standard at play and you seem to completely miss the boat on the simple fact that this is a Nintendo message board and people are going to be more judgemental when it comes to 'other' consoles just as you are more judgemental towards Nintendo and more leanient with MS.

I'm not an Xbot. If I were I probably wouldn't have my Xbox back in the box, waiting on a price drop for the 360, playing Ratchet & Clank on my PS2, and had invited my friend over to play F-Zero GX and Mario Kart Double Dash, and begging him to let me borrow Metroid Prime 2. Or that I'm checking video game sites every week hoping to see something about a DS redesign because I really want one, but I don't think they're very comfortable as they are. You still have an entirely wrong idea about me. I can't figure out where you get the idea that I'm pro or anti [insert console here]. I want to see them all do well, but I'm going to criticize their moves just the same.

Lol, did you happen to see the first post of this very thread? It was largely a huge criticism of everything they've done concerning the launch. What else is there to point out as a negative? Their huge cash assets? The growing number of third party support or first and second party exclusives? The improvement of Xbox Live? The support of Live Arcade? Microsoft has been on the upswing, so it's easy to see them on the up and up. Nintendo is not so easy. They've lost third party support, lost market share since the 64, they've been under criticism for not supporting HD...there's simply more to criticize.

Again, the killer app would help, but I still don't think it's necessary. It's certainly not a dire situation at this very moment, as you make it out to be.

The only negatives I've said about Nintendo are the same issues I bring up in light of your "Nintendo can do no wrong" posts. The dropping third party support is an issue, you can't deny that. The decline in market share since the 64 is an issue, you can't deny that. And don't construe my posts about the differences in power as negative/positive posts. I just compared the numbers, same as the Xbox vs. Gamecube sales. They are just numbers, you're the one who puts spin on them.

I guess what i'm saying is if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Dont ask for opinions or feedback if you dont actually want it. When those opinions hit, even if sorely negative, you have to realize it comes with the territory and hopefully (unless the person is just trying to be a dick) will offer a view point you hand't previously considered which, i'm assuming, was the point of this thread.

I just don't get YOUR opinion. It's largely unsupported and obviously ignorant at times. It comes off far more speculative, assumptious, and bias than anyone else on this board when it comes to non-Nintendo consoles and games...since OB1 left, that is. You've displayed several times now that you haven't kept up with the press releases and interviews from Microsoft yet you argue as if you do. It's also very obvious that you didn't even bother to keep up with Playstation, at least not enough to know the stats of their respective launches, so you can't possibly comprehend what I mean when I say killer apps aren't necessary right at first.

[A Black Falcon]

Some games don't ever achieve 73,000 units. Kameo did that in eight days, and to a very small user base. Give it some time before you call it a failure in any respect.

It is a failure compared to how it would sell on a Nintendo console. Say what you will about Microsoft's market, but for the most part it really is true that they just don't buy the same kinds of games as Nintendo's, and Rare makes Nintendo-style games. Kameo is comparitively going to fail despite of that... and Lazy is probably right about a new Banjo game. It'd do well on GC or Revolution, but not as much so on X360...

I'm not an Xbot. If I were I probably wouldn't have my Xbox back in the box, waiting on a price drop for the 360, playing Ratchet & Clank on my PS2, and had invited my friend over to play F-Zero GX and Mario Kart Double Dash, and begging him to let me borrow Metroid Prime 2. Or that I'm checking video game sites every week hoping to see something about a DS redesign because I really want one, but I don't think they're very comfortable as they are. You still have an entirely wrong idea about me. I can't figure out where you get the idea that I'm pro or anti [insert console here]. I want to see them all do well, but I'm going to criticize their moves just the same.

So am I not a Nintendo fan because two of the best games I've played in the last week are Shadow Dancer (Shinobi) on Genesis and Star Ocean: The Second Story on PSOne (as well as Metroid Prime)? No, I'm still a Nintendo fan... most people do have some core loyalty. Enjoying games on other consoles does mean that you might be a bit less of a diehard fan, but even so, I don't think it's wrong to say that people have a loyalty, even if they own/play other consoles too...

PS3 installed user base = 0
Revolution installed user base = 0
Get it?

Wow, now I know you're not reading my posts very carefully. I didn't say killer apps weren't necessary. I said precisely the opposite, however I don't think they are absolutely necessary right in the beginning.

Okay, you're going to have to fill me in as to what Japanese made games made the Playstation and Playstation 2 float along without their killer apps. I don't recall any standout games whatsoever, but it seems you're putting alot of stock in them. Care to share what you're thinking?

Neither the PSX or PS2 had great launch lineups... actually I think both were pretty bad. PSX did well at first anyway, because people were attracted to terrible junk like Battle Arena Toshinden, but it didn't truly take off until Square gave its support... PS2 was different, though. It won easily, even with a poor lineup... the PlayStation name won the day before the fight even started, even though it didn't really have good games for a while... Sony is banking on that happening again. We'll see... it's probably too soon to determine that yet. It's certainly possible, but not a certainty yet...

It's a FPS, and hardly a simulator.

Yes, here you are definitely correct.

Did you read what I quoted, or venture into the link? The source says that Xbox has more market share, and the numbers support that. Deal with it.

Nintendo would say that they're in second, probably because of the GB and DS, and I'd agree with that... it's not Nintendo's fault that MS doesn't compete in the handheld arena, anyway. Nintendo just gets to exploit that fact. :)

[lazyfatbum]

Paco, read my posts again. Not at any time did I say the 360 is doomed or anything like that. I said they need of two things to keep moving forward with th market share, a killer app or strong Japanese support. As weak as the PSX lineup was it had Japanese support from the get go, the same for PS2 (especially). The XBox and 360 are completely missing out on an entire region of Earth, wouldn't you agree that's something to work on?

I'm not even gonna try commenting on the rest of your post, it's pretty blatent fanboy defense and angst. However I will comment to what ABF also said:

Hopefully you'll agree that there are many different types of FPS games, each offering something different, like a smaller catagories inside the main genre.

COD is a FPS. I totally agree. COD uses the FPS genre to create a realistic depiction of WW2. You run with a squad who performs scripted events through the level which is itself a scripted event. In COD you use weapons with realistic recoil and attributes, firing an automatic will mean and unwieldly experience that is best used in spurts (just like real automatics). Combine this with realistic gun play, such as the one shot death with very aggresive AI that tries to hit you even through cracks in the wall and you have an experience that is very simulator-esque and less arcade-like.

As apposed to say Halo, which is all about running and gunning. No matter the recoil of the weapon, shooting, aiming, etc is never a chore that requires any advanced skill. The skill in a game like Halo comes from the strategies implemented in how you score the kill and particular timing - very arcade-like.

In COD, if you played it like a 'normal' FPS with arcade-like gameplay, you would die really quick and/or your squad might suffer. In COD you have to constantly use cover, rely on your squad and enter the mindset of an actual soldier in WW2, taking no risks and attacking when the time is right. In Halo you can run up to a huge group of enemies and take them all down, it's designed to be a shooter just like Galaga is designed to be a shooter: take down the targets.

COD is not designed this way, taking down targets is context sensitive and sometimes isn't even required in particular areas of the game, the main focus in COD is getting your squad from point A to point B and performing mission objectives. I will agree however that in COD there are some missions that are EXTREMELY arcade like, where it's very much a shooter. But these levels are there to break up the gameplay presented in the meat of the game.

You could call it a squad based shooter, or a tactical shooter or maybe 'wartime' shooter, but it is something different than your typical PC or console FPS games where taking down massive amounts of targets is the point of the game.

Metroid Prime recieves the odd 'Action Adventure FPS', I wouldn't call MP a straight FPS because of it's RPG elements (brought from earlier Metroid games) so if you use Halo (which is basically Goldeneye or PD) as the definition of a straight FPS, COD seems to fall outside its definition. Perhaps simulator is the wrong term to use, but I call Gran Turismo a 'racing simulator' simply because of its super realistic handeling of cars. So when COD's trying to be super realistic with its wartime combat it makes sense to me to call it a 'simulator' as well simply because it is much more grounded in reality than straight FPS's and for the fact that 'shooting' is not the primary function of COD (more based on tactics and securing objectives to slowly advance through battlefields).

Hopefully that will clear things up.

[Paco]

Completely missing out on Japanese support? They are working on it and have done pretty well in getting some good looking prospects...

Ninety Nine Nights, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Lost Planet, Bullet Witch, Cry On, Every Party, Dead or Alive 4, Code Cronus, DOAX2, Ninja Gaiden 2, Chrome Hounds, Ridge Racer 6, Frame City Killer, Final Fantasy XI, Dead Rising, Sonic 360, Resident Evil 5, Dynasty Warriors 5, and more that I can't think of right now.

They are coming, they just take time.

Hey, instead of listing COD as a FPS they should replace it with all that drivel you posted.;)

[Paco]

It is a failure compared to how it would sell on a Nintendo console. Say what you will about Microsoft's market, but for the most part it really is true that they just don't buy the same kinds of games as Nintendo's, and Rare makes Nintendo-style games. Kameo is comparitively going to fail despite of that... and Lazy is probably right about a new Banjo game. It'd do well on GC or Revolution, but not as much so on X360...

So what, Microsoft shouldn't even try?

So am I not a Nintendo fan because two of the best games I've played in the last week are Shadow Dancer (Shinobi) on Genesis and Star Ocean: The Second Story on PSOne (as well as Metroid Prime)? No, I'm still a Nintendo fan... most people do have some core loyalty. Enjoying games on other consoles does mean that you might be a bit less of a diehard fan, but even so, I don't think it's wrong to say that people have a loyalty, even if they own/play other consoles too...

I'm a fan of all the consoles, but I'm not loyal to any of them. The last console I was loyal to was the Dreamcast. So loyal that I bought every single first party game released regardless if I liked it only so I knew I was doing my part in making Sega successful. I vehemently defended it as thought Sega could do no wrong, and hyped up even the most mediocre of their releases. When Sega killed it off I was crushed, and I was truly concerned for their future.

Now I'm more into the games than I am the consoles. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo release some really good games, and I want to see more of them. It just doesn't make any sense to be loyal to a video game company.

Neither the PSX or PS2 had great launch lineups... actually I think both were pretty bad. PSX did well at first anyway, because people were attracted to terrible junk like Battle Arena Toshinden, but it didn't truly take off until Square gave its support... PS2 was different, though. It won easily, even with a poor lineup... the PlayStation name won the day before the fight even started, even though it didn't really have good games for a while... Sony is banking on that happening again. We'll see... it's probably too soon to determine that yet. It's certainly possible, but not a certainty yet...

Square's first game didn't come until 1997, Final Fantasy VII, two years after the console's release. There is time for a killer app.

Nintendo would say that they're in second, probably because of the GB and DS, and I'd agree with that... it's not Nintendo's fault that MS doesn't compete in the handheld arena, anyway. Nintendo just gets to exploit that fact. :)

Yes, we've been over this before and you know I don't count the handhelds. If Nintendo were counting the handhelds then they probably have more units out there than PS2 and PSP combined.

[Dark Jaguar]

http://xmaschicken.ytmnd.com/

[A Black Falcon]

So what, Microsoft shouldn't even try?

They're only trying so much... they are releasing Rare's games, but the rest of the market they've built up around the Xbox isn't really conductive to selling Rare games, while Nintendo's is perfect, so they aren't really succeeding... and going by sales, it doesn't look like anything has changed on those regards this generation. In short, Rare was stupid to want to leave Nintendo, as bad as their relationship may have been. :)

I'm a fan of all the consoles, but I'm not loyal to any of them. The last console I was loyal to was the Dreamcast. So loyal that I bought every single first party game released regardless if I liked it only so I knew I was doing my part in making Sega successful. I vehemently defended it as thought Sega could do no wrong, and hyped up even the most mediocre of their releases. When Sega killed it off I was crushed, and I was truly concerned for their future.

Now I'm more into the games than I am the consoles. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo release some really good games, and I want to see more of them. It just doesn't make any sense to be loyal to a video game company.

"Were" worried about their future? Sega hasn't exactly been doing well, quality-wise, since the DC died... there is a very distinct and noticable drop in quality and massive increase in porting. I mean, what have we gotten from Sega... a mountain of DC ports, a few sequels to DC games (some not that good), and only a few great original titles like the ones that the DC was known for...

As for loyalty, maybe it doesn't make "sense", but that doesn't make it wrong. :) I mean, if I had the money I'd have all the consoles... but even then I'd likely often get the GC versions of games, just because I like Nintendo more...and anyway, the consoles are different, so it makes sense to compare them and choose a favorite. Oh yes, and becoming loyal to a company that makes great games is a quite natural, and probably good, thing... (and in my case I don't just mean Nintendo here; I am also extremely loyal to Blizzard, for example.)

Square's first game didn't come until 1997, Final Fantasy VII, two years after the console's release. There is time for a killer app.

And if you remember 1996, people had a lot of hope for the N64... skeptical about the cart decision possibly, but it was Nintendo, so it had to begreat and would probably win the generation, right? But the third parties abandoned Nintendo, and Sony's 'aim at an older market' campaign worked better than Sega or Nintendo expected... but yes, it wasn't an overnight victory. Well, it was an overnight victory over the Saturn (at least in Western markets), but less so for the N64...

Yes, we've been over this before and you know I don't count the handhelds. If Nintendo were counting the handhelds then they probably have more units out there than PS2 and PSP combined.

And I maintain my position (same thing I say when Stealth starts saying that portables don't count...) that portables definitely do count, since they are an integral part of the gaming market and are at worst a very closely related field to the major console market (and at best the same one, just in a different aspect). It is utterly senseless to cut out half of the market just because of the type of screen that the game is developed for... handhelds are a huge portion in the market, in Japan especially (DS has sold over 5 million units in Japan, versus 2.something million in the US (PSP is at 2.something, slightly behind DS I think, in the US, and farther back in Japan.)...)... but the DS is doing very well here too. PSP too, though to a bit lesser degree...

Anyway, I can understand the "it's a different format" argument. Even ignoring everything else, what invalidates that in my eyes is the fact that so many people who say it (like you) tie it to something that intimates 'and it'd make Nintendo look like it's winning when it's really not'... I don't think that counting handhelds (GBA and newer only) gives Nintendo first place overall... GBA+DS+GC isn't quite up to PS2+PSP I believe, because of that 100 million PS2s number (versus 19-20 million GCs, 8-10 million DSes, and 60-70 million various GBAs)... but either way, I definitely think that they count in the final anaysis. Sure, say that in the major console market MS is beating Nintendo (and it is, if not by much), but when looking at the overall picture, leaving out handhelds is just wrong.

[Great Rumbler]

Xbox360 sold 5000 units this past week in Japan.

[Paco]

They're only trying so much... they are releasing Rare's games, but the rest of the market they've built up around the Xbox isn't really conductive to selling Rare games, while Nintendo's is perfect, so they aren't really succeeding... and going by sales, it doesn't look like anything has changed on those regards this generation. In short, Rare was stupid to want to leave Nintendo, as bad as their relationship may have been. :)

They've released an okay game to an established mature crowd, Grabbed by the Ghoulies, a remake, Conker. Now Perfect Dark Zero and Kameo are new beginnings on a new console. This generation has just begun, give them some time to stretch their legs and breath. If you remember, Jak & Daxter or Ratchet & Clank were not overnight successes. In fact, Sony was a bit disappointed with Jak's initial sales but was confident that more people would catch on sooner or later. Here we are, some 2 sequels and a racer later and it's a smash success. I think you're making the call way too quickly.

FYI, Rare says the two new games they will announce and show in a few months are more mature titles. They said they've been wanting to make more mature content but Nintendo wasn't very excited about it, and that's where the problems started. (Same thing happened to Silicone Knights, no?) Anyway, I'm still hoping for a new Banjo.

"Were" worried about their future? Sega hasn't exactly been doing well, quality-wise, since the DC died... there is a very distinct and noticable drop in quality and massive increase in porting. I mean, what have we gotten from Sega... a mountain of DC ports, a few sequels to DC games (some not that good), and only a few great original titles like the ones that the DC was known for...

Yes, I know, and I no longer care. However, I think they are starting to get back in the game. They have partnered with several developers in efforts to publish some great looking games. They also said they would start concentrating their efforts and do less porting in the future.

As for loyalty, maybe it doesn't make "sense", but that doesn't make it wrong. :) I mean, if I had the money I'd have all the consoles... but even then I'd likely often get the GC versions of games, just because I like Nintendo more...and anyway, the consoles are different, so it makes sense to compare them and choose a favorite. Oh yes, and becoming loyal to a company that makes great games is a quite natural, and probably good, thing... (and in my case I don't just mean Nintendo here; I am also extremely loyal to Blizzard, for example.)

It makes you look pretty pathetic when you blindly defend that company even when it's painfully obvious they've made a mistake. I'm not talking about you.

I'm loyal to developers. Nintendo, Rare, Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Bungie, Square, and Sega games are what I like. I go where they go, and I don't care what console they are on. (It's rather unfortunate that they are on different consoles; it makes for an expensive habit) That doesn't mean I won't criticize them though.

And if you remember 1996, people had a lot of hope for the N64... skeptical about the cart decision possibly, but it was Nintendo, so it had to begreat and would probably win the generation, right? But the third parties abandoned Nintendo, and Sony's 'aim at an older market' campaign worked better than Sega or Nintendo expected... but yes, it wasn't an overnight victory. Well, it was an overnight victory over the Saturn (at least in Western markets), but less so for the N64...

This is why I always say that nothing is guaranteed. People assume that Sony will continue to be king of the hill, or Microsoft won't ever appeal to anyone but Halo fans. I just say all we can do is wait and see, and try to point out obvious efforts.;)

And I maintain my position (same thing I say when Stealth starts saying that portables don't count...) that portables definitely do count, since they are an integral part of the gaming market and are at worst a very closely related field to the major console market (and at best the same one, just in a different aspect). It is utterly senseless to cut out half of the market just because of the type of screen that the game is developed for... handhelds are a huge portion in the market, in Japan especially (DS has sold over 5 million units in Japan, versus 2.something million in the US (PSP is at 2.something, slightly behind DS I think, in the US, and farther back in Japan.)...)... but the DS is doing very well here too. PSP too, though to a bit lesser degree...

Anyway, I can understand the "it's a different format" argument. Even ignoring everything else, what invalidates that in my eyes is the fact that so many people who say it (like you) tie it to something that intimates 'and it'd make Nintendo look like it's winning when it's really not'... I don't think that counting handhelds (GBA and newer only) gives Nintendo first place overall... GBA+DS+GC isn't quite up to PS2+PSP I believe, because of that 100 million PS2s number (versus 19-20 million GCs, 8-10 million DSes, and 60-70 million various GBAs)... but either way, I definitely think that they count in the final anaysis. Sure, say that in the major console market MS is beating Nintendo (and it is, if not by much), but when looking at the overall picture, leaving out handhelds is just wrong.

I know what you are saying but I still don't agree. It's not that I don't want Nintendo to be number one, or that I do (I honestly, sincerely don't care who is in what place), but I just don't see the console and handheld as the same device, and I won't compare them.

[lazyfatbum]

Yes because they are two or more hardware platforms with content provided by the same first party. Completely different and should not be 'counted' especially in terms of sales data. I remember stealth saying the same thing too, it's just another idiotic way for someone to look down on Nintendo because they're afraid of people seeing the size of their dick.

It's not comparing a mac to an ipod, we're talking about different gaming platforms created by the same company. It's true that it's different markets, in the same way that PS2 is a different market than Gamecube. But that's it, especially now with 3-D portable games that emulate the 32 and 64 bit games of the last generations.

The only difference, a side from graphics, between a GBA and a GC is that one is played on the TV and the other is portable. That line is blurred even further when you consider the GBA player.

What is it with people using that like an excuse? Is it because they have sexual intercourse with their own mother or father? I think that's it. I bet they're porkin their parents and spouting off latin while they do it, taking wine baths, etc. Those dirty europeans, dirty and celtic.

Hey, instead of listing COD as a FPS they should replace it with all that drivel you posted.

Too late, they're already calling it a 'Military FPS' or 'Historic' FPS on message boards and game sites. Dumb name for a genre but atleast it seperates it enough.

[A Black Falcon]

FYI, Rare says the two new games they will announce and show in a few months are more mature titles. They said they've been wanting to make more mature content but Nintendo wasn't very excited about it, and that's where the problems started. (Same thing happened to Silicone Knights, no?) Anyway, I'm still hoping for a new Banjo.

Yes, and MS is oh so much more understanding about those things...

Oh wait, they forced Rare to censor more stuff in Conker than Nintendo did? Right.

[Paco]

Yes, and MS is oh so much more understanding about those things...

Oh wait, they forced Rare to censor more stuff in Conker than Nintendo did? Right.

Conker falls in to the mature category due to its groteseque events and often crude language. After having played it, I can say it was a bit over the top and at times disgusting. Conker could have gotten by just fine without the suggestive language.

Resident Evil, Halo, Silent Hill, etc are rated mature for different reasons. Gore, shooting, horrific images, etc.

Did I really need to point that out?

[lazyfatbum]

...

[A Black Falcon]

Conker falls in to the mature category due to its groteseque events and often crude language. After having played it, I can say it was a bit over the top and at times disgusting. Conker could have gotten by just fine without the suggestive language.

It was definitely over the top and sometimes disgusting, but that was the whole point, and censoring it isn't right...

They're only trying so much... they are releasing Rare's games, but the rest of the market they've built up around the Xbox isn't really conductive to selling Rare games, while Nintendo's is perfect, so they aren't really succeeding... and going by sales, it doesn't look like anything has changed on those regards this generation. In short, Rare was stupid to want to leave Nintendo, as bad as their relationship may have been.
They've released an okay game to an established mature crowd, Grabbed by the Ghoulies, a remake, Conker. Now Perfect Dark Zero and Kameo are new beginnings on a new console. This generation has just begun, give them some time to stretch their legs and breath. If you remember, Jak & Daxter or Ratchet & Clank were not overnight successes. In fact, Sony was a bit disappointed with Jak's initial sales but was confident that more people would catch on sooner or later. Here we are, some 2 sequels and a racer later and it's a smash success. I think you're making the call way too quickly.

Grabbed by the Ghoulies sold so badly that even Rare admits it'll never have a sequel... and Conker for Xbox didn't exactly burn up the charts either. As for the X360 games, it's probably too early to tell, but Kameo is selling okay but not great and PDZ is selling alright but getting criticized by the Halo fans for not being Halo...

Yes, I know, and I no longer care. However, I think they are starting to get back in the game. They have partnered with several developers in efforts to publish some great looking games. They also said they would start concentrating their efforts and do less porting in the future.

Stuff like Shadow the Hedgehog does not make me hopeful for Sega, unfortunately...

This is why I always say that nothing is guaranteed. People assume that Sony will continue to be king of the hill, or Microsoft won't ever appeal to anyone but Halo fans. I just say all we can do is wait and see, and try to point out obvious efforts.

It requires both failures from the market leader and effort from the competitors, though. I'm not sure if both of those factors will come together in the right way to upset Sony... it's possible, but Sony's done well its first two generations... we'll know better once we hear more about the PS3 and Revolution (since both Sony and Nintendo are being fairly secretive).

I know what you are saying but I still don't agree. It's not that I don't want Nintendo to be number one, or that I do (I honestly, sincerely don't care who is in what place), but I just don't see the console and handheld as the same device, and I won't compare them.

It makes no sense to say "LttP is a console game here and a handheld game here and the two games have absolutely nothing in common and are in completely different markets" when they are the same exact game...

As for the obvious question that raises 'well then what about PC gaming'... good question. That's the obvious other platform category... pc, handheld, and the tv consoles. It's just a smaller one than the others, and one more focused on specific kinds of games...

But anyway, game sales are game sales. Artificial borders like "that doesn't count because it's on handhelds!" are absurd.

[Paco]

It was definitely over the top and sometimes disgusting, but that was the whole point, and censoring it isn't right...

Sometimes it's better to just leave some things out. Ever watch a really disgusting movie and thought you would have been just fine without having seen a particular part? Conker didn't suffer, it was still plenty explicit.

Grabbed by the Ghoulies sold so badly that even Rare admits it'll never have a sequel... and Conker for Xbox didn't exactly burn up the charts either. As for the X360 games, it's probably too early to tell, but Kameo is selling okay but not great and PDZ is selling alright but getting criticized by the Halo fans for not being Halo...

Let the Halo fans have their Halo. Let the PDZ fans have their PDZ. Why can't one console have both?

It requires both failures from the market leader and effort from the competitors, though. I'm not sure if both of those factors will come together in the right way to upset Sony... it's possible, but Sony's done well its first two generations... we'll know better once we hear more about the PS3 and Revolution (since both Sony and Nintendo are being fairly secretive).

Nintendo did pretty well it's first two generations, too.

It makes no sense to say "LttP is a console game here and a handheld game here and the two games have absolutely nothing in common and are in completely different markets" when they are the same exact game...

As for the obvious question that raises 'well then what about PC gaming'... good question. That's the obvious other platform category... pc, handheld, and the tv consoles. It's just a smaller one than the others, and one more focused on specific kinds of games...

You're not going to gain any ground with me on this arguement. You might as well save it.

[A Black Falcon]

Sometimes it's better to just leave some things out. Ever watch a really disgusting movie and thought you would have been just fine without having seen a particular part? Conker didn't suffer, it was still plenty explicit.

No. People should be allowed to make the product they want to make... yes there should be some limits, but they don't apply here. What, exactly, is gained by bleeping out much the Great Mighty Poo's songs (for instance)? Nothing, that's what... it just shows how much Nintendo has changed from the SNES days... it is odd to have the less censored version of a game on the Nintendo platform, for people who remember Nintendo's NES/SNES stuff, and Nintendo self-censors its own games, but seem to be much less strict with third parties... they don't do the whole "you can't release that game in this region because we say so" thing Sony does with PSX/2 games, they don't censor nearly as much (GC had the least censored version of BMX XXX I think...), etc... of course, they did not publish Conker, Rare did that itsself, and they did not advertise it in Nintendo Power, but those are reasonable moves to protect its image... and the game was still released.

Let the Halo fans have their Halo. Let the PDZ fans have their PDZ. Why can't one console have both?

Because more PD fans probably have GC, not Xbox, and most Halo fans have Xbox... and the two are different kinds of FPSes. So doesn't it make sense that PDZ will do worse on the console full of Halo fans than it would on one full of people who loved Rare's previous FPSes?

Nintendo did pretty well it's first two generations, too.

Uhh... notice my point about "mistakes"? As I said, it takes both mistakes from the leader and good moves from the followers... I didn't think it was necessary to elaborate, given how well-known the facts about what happened with PSX vs N64 should be...

Unless you are implying that Sony is making mistakes? I don't see them doing that... not really...

You're not going to gain any ground with me on this arguement. You might as well save it.

That sure doesn't make your point make one bit more sense, to say the least... it's just a tactic used to discredit Nintendo, simple as that.

[Paco]

Because more PD fans probably have GC, not Xbox, and most Halo fans have Xbox... and the two are different kinds of FPSes. So doesn't it make sense that PDZ will do worse on the console full of Halo fans than it would on one full of people who loved Rare's previous FPSes?

And Rare can hopefully make some Perfect Dark fans on the 360.

Doesn't it make sense that if you want to widen your appeal then you would need to have options other than Halo? PDZ and Halo are very different FPS, and they can both have a place on the 360 with their own audiences.

Uhh... notice my point about "mistakes"? As I said, it takes both mistakes from the leader and good moves from the followers... I didn't think it was necessary to elaborate, given how well-known the facts about what happened with PSX vs N64 should be...

Who says these mistakes won't happen again?

Unless you are implying that Sony is making mistakes? I don't see them doing that... not really...

It depends. If the PS3 is too expensive for developers then they will make less games for it (because they can't afford to otherwise), if it's too expensive for consumers then it will take longer to get to the all important mass market. Sony has built a video game empire, and it is historically accurate to say all empires fall. I'm not saying it's going to happen in the next year or the next 20 years, just eventually. It's inevitable.

That sure doesn't make your point make one bit more sense, to say the least... it's just a tactic used to discredit Nintendo, simple as that.

Portables =! Consoles :)

[The Former DMiller]

Portables =! Consoles :)

Actually, that would give you a compiler error most likely. It should be Portables != Consoles. ;)

And I think portables should definitely be included with home consoles. They are portable consoles and compete in the same market as the home consoles. Just because one company in the home console market doesn't have a portable system doesn't mean we should put the portables in a totally separate category from the home consoles. There are plenty of people out there that only own a portable console just as there are people who only own a home console. Are people who don't own a home console not a part of the larger videogame market because they do not own a home console? It's almost like saying the laptop and desktop PC markets are totally different. Yes, they are looked at separately at times, but when it comes to marketshare Dell isn't going to only include their marketshare in the desktop market. Marketshare in the PC world means all of the computers the company sells, not just one type of computer. I'm not saying this because I want Nintendo to be in first, and I don't think they are in first anyway including portables. In fact, I couldn't care less what place Nintendo is in as long as they keep making the games I love, but it just seems silly to not include portable systems when determining how many systems a company has sold.

[lazyfatbum]

Looking at Nintendo's current systems, GBA, DS and GC I believe they're right around PS2 and PSP's numbers and way over XBox.

yup

Worldwide Hardware Sales (End of September 2005)
PS2 - 96.01 million
Xbox - 21.9 million
GameCube - 19.31 million
Game Boy Advance - 70.04 million
Nintendo DS - 8.83 million
PSP - 8.81 million

The figures are shipments (or "sales" to stores) using official manufacturer numbers, not from third party organizations such as NPD, Media Create, Chart Track, etc. Hardware could be sitting in warehouses by the millions!

PS2 + PSP = 113.72 million

GC + DS + GBA = 98.18 million

Again though, with sales charts like this it looks like the PSP has the same installed user base of DS, which it doesn't. And in all fairness, there are some companies still making games for PSX though Sony's first and second parties do not.

[Great Rumbler]

The DS is well over 12 million by now, since it's gotten around 1.5-2 million sales in November and December in Japan alone. It's actually probabably closer to 15 million.

[A Black Falcon]

It's almost like saying the laptop and desktop PC markets are totally different.

Great comparison, I didn't think of that one... quite true, though. It doesn't make any more sense for consoles than it would for computers...

And Rare can hopefully make some Perfect Dark fans on the 360.

Doesn't it make sense that if you want to widen your appeal then you would need to have options other than Halo? PDZ and Halo are very different FPS, and they can both have a place on the 360 with their own audiences.

[quote]It depends. If the PS3 is too expensive for developers then they will make less games for it (because they can't afford to otherwise), if it's too expensive for consumers then it will take longer to get to the all important mass market. Sony has built a video game empire, and it is historically accurate to say all empires fall. I'm not saying it's going to happen in the next year or the next 20 years, just eventually. It's inevitable.

Okay, yes, this is probably true... as for the price thing though, Sony does seem to be able to get the right one, or at least an acceptable one -- PSP ended up at $300, not the higher rumored prices... and PS1 and PS2 were also $300 at launch. Will this be more? Quite likely. But remember, $300 1995 dollars are worth a bit over $300 now... that $200 NES from 1985 is around $350 in 2005 dollars, I believe. This is not that extreme, but there is a difference... market pressures say that it can't be over $400 if they want to succeed, though, I think. I bet they take a big loss before they charge over $400... betting on its massive success so they can soon make money off software and Blu-Ray movies (like those rumors that the X360 costs MS over $700 to make...). Anyway, price is a factor, but not the deciding one, provided the prices are close enough... X360 is an expensive piece of hardware, so PS3 would have to be pretty expensive to really have the price as a major factor (and this works for Revolution too... I'm just not convinced that price is a deciding purchasing decision. It is one, but I think that games are more important... like, the DS didn't start beating PSP until it got a great games lineup... when both consoles had a mediocre one, PSP was winning despite being twice the price.). Even so, if it's like $600, price will definitely matter... though a lot of people seem to view Sony's continued victory as inevitable. I'd rather think not, of course, but we'll see... :) (I prefer even MS to Sony...)