The Pledge of Allegiance

[A Black Falcon]

I dont see why many Atheist can believe in Big foot and the Lochness monster without a any physical proof other then a few sightings and a few minor uncredible clues.Oh yes what about

UFO's?Alot of people beliveve they exist , Some under pure faith whos only evidence is... "its a really big universe out there".

( actually I do accept the posibility of Extra terrestials as you probaily do as well)

Yet you call us fools for believing in God or higher beings..

As for your last statement , I dont kill and I dont plan on ever doing it.

You call that backing up your position?

Um... Bigfoot? The Loch Ness Monster? They're called made up stories...

Aliens? I do NOT think that any aliens have visited the earth. No way... its absurd... but do they exist? Of course! Given how big the universe is, its impossible that no aliens could exist... I know religous types have a superiority complex that refuses to let them believe that life isn't some super rare magical thing that almost never happens, but when we look at the facts... such as the microbes from Mars (BTW, they ARE from Mars, no question...), it paints a very different picture...

But how common is intelligent life? That, of course, we have no way of knowing. All we know is that we haven't found any yet... anyting beyond that is speculation, but I'm sure its out there somewhere...

Of course if intelligent life is relatively rare we may never find any (due to how long it takes to go between stars... lightspeed isn't that fast in teh interstellar sense and there's no proof of possible Faster-Than-Life travel...)...but since we have no basis to say if its rare or common, really, so I don't know.

[Darunia]

Here here, Black Falcon!

I dont see why many Atheist can believe in Big foot and the Lochness monster without a any physical proof

Whoa there buddy; are you saying that all Atheists don't believe in god, yet they all believe in that shit? I know thats bullshit...as for aliens, I'm with Black Falcon in believing that they are out there somewhere, certainly; but I do not believe that they've ever been here. Our "UFO's" are all bullshit as well.

-----Barry

[A Black Falcon]

UFOs (on earth or in orbit) are on the same level of Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, the Yeti, crop circles, or the proof that we are in the 'end times' that people always want to exist but don't...

[alien space marine]

Originally posted by A Black Falcon
You call that backing up your position?

Um... Bigfoot? The Loch Ness Monster? They're called made up stories...

Aliens? I do NOT think that any aliens have visited the earth. No way... its absurd... but do they exist? Of course! Given how big the universe is, its impossible that no aliens could exist... I know religous types have a superiority complex that refuses to let them believe that life isn't some super rare magical thing that almost never happens, but when we look at the facts... such as the microbes from Mars (BTW, they ARE from Mars, no question...), it paints a very different picture...

But how common is intelligent life? That, of course, we have no way of knowing. All we know is that we haven't found any yet... anyting beyond that is speculation, but I'm sure its out there somewhere...

Of course if intelligent life is relatively rare we may never find any (due to how long it takes to go between stars... lightspeed isn't that fast in teh interstellar sense and there's no proof of possible Faster-Than-Life travel...)...but since we have no basis to say if its rare or common, really, so I don't know.

It all boils down to personal choice , there is no right or wrong view of life's existence.

[WhiteFleck]

Exactly what sort of proof do you want of God?

I could ask you to prove the existence of Abraham Lincoln. Care to doubt his existence?

[A Black Falcon]

Oh come on... you are being absurd... there is photographic evidence that Abraham Lincoln existed, and plenty of factual backing... as is possible with things that are tangible... but that isn't possible with god... deny it all you want but you just prove more and more how ridiculoous you sound.

[Darunia]

Yea, I can go dig up Honest Abe...he actually still DOES PHYSICALLY exist on the planet. God...well...come on.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah... I don't understand how ANYONE could call that a remotely sane comparison...

[WhiteFleck]

There is NO scientific proof that Abraham Lincoln lived. There's plenty of evidence, but there's no scientific way of proving he existed. It's more or less the same with God. There's plenty of evidence, but He can't be proved scientifically.

And digging up some old bones doesn't mean a thing. What if his real body was cremated or buried somewhere else?

[A Black Falcon]

Come ON! Look. Abraham Lincoln did exist. He has decendants. He has photographs of him. There are huge numbers of people who wrote down things about him. He has a body buried in his grave! Its insane to try to say he never existed! It makes about as much sense as the "arguments" of those people who say the Holocaust never happened do despite the photographic and written evidence...

God of course has absolutely none of that to prove his existence.

[WhiteFleck]

By using such language as "of course," you're showing a bit of bias.

Think. What's the bible? A record of writings about God. How about man's search for greater meaning? How about thousands of changed lives? How about thousands of divine 'coincidences'?

All of this is evidence just like what you've cited in Lincoln's defense. But perhaps its easier to say he existed, since the idea of just another dead guy isn't a threat. But having some supreme being who just might actually care about what you're doing on Earth, maybe that's something you'd rather not imagine.

I don't understand how this world would be held together without a Maker. That doesn't mean I've never thought about it. Honestly, WHY DOES THE IDEA OF A CREATOR BOTHER YOU SO MUCH?

Feel free to completely ignore all of this, but you're only restricting yourself.

[Dark Jaguar]

Well, once the debate got to "proove God exists" which is exactly what happened between the space marine and some of our fellow TC members, I stepped out, but I will step in again just to say "stop". There isn't really a point. As I said, it's about faith. Faith by it's very definition lacks proof. I can't proove He exists to you, and in fact wasn't really trying to convince you that He MUST exist. I was however defending my position. You are in fact the attackers, trying to convince us of what you believe. I'll finish this saying the whole debate going on here should stop. I made my case quite some time ago, then it all got off course, and there seems to be a lot of anger and such around here. Let's just go on as before. Maybe you will choose this some day, maybe not, but it's out of my hands now, and I will not say anything to convince you of it, since as I said it's a matter of faith, which is purely one choosing whether or not to trust something with no evidence that it'll actually be trustworthy. Perhaps it would be best to simply close this thread for now. I don't want to overstep any boundries. Feel free to start up a new thread, and don't forget to say I'm censoring your freedom of expression :D (kidding, I wouldn't be so mean as to sum you up as that kind of hippy), but bear in mind I will most likely not take part in that discussion.

[A Black Falcon]

Mods can still post... your attempt to kill this thread will FAIL! :p (And it just hit page 5 too... too long to let die... :) )

Is the argument going to go anywhere? Nope. But that doesn't mean it should be killed...

You are correct -- it cannot be proven that God exists or doesn't exist. By nature it isn't something that can be proven or not... yes, the Bible (and other religous texts and stuff) all say that he does... but religous texts from every race in every time has said similar things... with a similar complete lack of facts. Does the bible have some truth in it? Sure! I won't try to say its all made up. Clearly it was not. However, that doesn't make all the religous refrences true... just like the Illiad. The fact that it contains numerous places where the Greek gods talk and interact with people make the overall story any less true at its core? No... there probably was a Jesus, and a Great Flood (there are just too many stories from so many Near Eastern cultures about a flood in ancient times to dismiss it as a myth... the best guess so far is the theory that it was the in the Black Sea -- when the barrier seperating the Black Sea from the Mediteranean broke there was a huge flood as the Meditteranean flooded into the lower Black and it flooded a HUGE area in places that are now underwater there...). But the religous refrences and stuff? That is made up, or based on belief that events were manipulated by a divine presence which weren't, or something along those lines...

"Miracles". Yes, amazing things happen. But bad things happen too... enough of them that "Miracles" can be called just that -- miraculous happenings -- amazing cooincadences. Not divinely inspired... but still often amazing.

I just can't understand how such a huge majority of people can believe in something that seems so out of the realm of the possible as deities...

[A Black Falcon]

Oh, and I'd open the thread but I don't know how... *looks at 'thread options'

Ah, there we are! :)

Or did you not know I was a mod in all the forums (I have mod powers in all forums but not access to the admin site stuff I think or something so I'm not a admin...)? Weltall gave me it when he closed the Emulation Forum...

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah, I knew that, but I was hoping YOU didn't... *does a Skinner style head nod*

I just thought this thread should die. It's not getting anywhere and there's nothing but name calling. Of course, closing it is merely symbolic with the number of mods around, but I was hoping you would agree that there's no point in continuing when it can only hurt relationships around here.

[A Black Falcon]

Given that WELL over half the frequently posting members are one kind of mod or another, yeah it is pretty symbolic... but at this point its really pointless. I mean, its almost 170 posts into the thread... by now its kind of too late to try to not damage relationships based on comments on this subject, I'd think... and it should be left open for the 1 or 2 people on this forum who aren't mods or admins. :)

Oh, and its odd that it calls them "Admin Options" but mods can use them too...

[alien space marine]

I hope some day we humans wont have such large gaps in our knowledge of were we come from.But all we can do is look to the future , Religion and science both play key roles in society.
I dont believe they conflict but they both coincide with each other.

Relgion still plays a major role in shaping the moral values of society, but sadly those values are dispearing to be replaced with nothing but conflicted views on right and wrong.

The problems and failing of society effect both Creationist and Atheist perhaps we both can do somthing to benefit each other as we share common Issues, Actions mean more then words.

[A Black Falcon]

Conflicting opinions isn't a bad thing... unified belief in a opinion is NOT a good thing. It leads to bad things happening way too often... and debate leads (in the long run at least) to a closer understanding of what the truth is...

[WhiteFleck]

Unless both sides are convinced the other is wrong. Which is pretty much how it is now. So ABF, what do you say we lay down our swords now that we've heard each other out?

[A Black Falcon]

Fine. You can continue to live in your comforting world... it is VERY obvious that this argument is completely pointless by now...

[Dark Jaguar]

Well the only point to my even taking part in this was to get my point across. You were out to actually convince me to believe your views, and you don't seem to want to stop until I do.

[alien space marine]

the comparison of Faith in god to believing in fairy tales was quite incredible insensitive , Regardless weither you believe that or not.


So how am I sopposed to respect if you dont respect me?


So before this debate gets any thicker in flaming I suggest we do the mature thing and end it.

[Darunia]

I suppose its best left buried...though it is doubtless that there will be another day of reckoning further on down the road. Like in The Mummy. This topic is Imhotep.

[A Black Falcon]

the comparison of Faith in god to believing in fairy tales was quite incredible insensitive , Regardless weither you believe that or not.

True, though (in some ways)...

Oh, and you can disbelieve me if you wish, but I really never did have any expectations whatsoever that I'd convince anyone of anything... this debate just doesn't work that way... I just started the thread so we could argue about this topic until we all got tired of it. :)

[WhiteFleck]

Objective Complete.

[alien space marine]

Oh well it was fun!

[A Black Falcon]

So is posting just to get a reaction very nice? Oh well... we hadn't had a good religon debate since that one over creationism several years ago... :)

[WhiteFleck]

Yes. Mmm, pie.

[A Black Falcon]

Pie? The best kinds are Blueberry, Apple, and Strawberry-Rhubarb...

[Weltall]

I can't eat pie anymore, you racists :(

[A Black Falcon]

And why is it you can't eat pie? Poor person... :)

[Dark Jaguar]

It may be his diet, the one that turned him from Silent Bob into Leonardo Decaprio.

[Weltall]

I like that. :D

[A Black Falcon]

All due to Subway? Going to be in the next of those ads with Jared? :)

[Weltall]

Originally posted by A Black Falcon
All due to Subway? Going to be in the next of those ads with Jared? :)

I hate Jared, and I'll never touch a Subway sub as long as I draw breath :D

Besides, it's all about Henry. Clay Henry.

It's all due to me hardly eating anything and working out three hours daily :)

[A Black Falcon]

Oh well... too bad. So no Weltall diet ads? :)

[Weltall]

Oh, I don't know. I could whore myself out to some fitness center for an adspot or two

[Sacred Jellybean]

Whoa-oa it's bouncin' and it's shinin' like a reeed rubber ballll!

Yeah.

[Dark Jaguar]

Excercise is far more important than dieting. The thing about diets is, well, they are scientifically proven failed ideas. The body isn't really designed to loose weight that way, and in fact when you go on a diet, it is most likely to make the body preserve fat and go into a starve state. You will loose a lot of weight, but size will not drop. That weight is mostly water. Fat itself weighs very little (which is why it floats). That's why it takes a very very LARGE person indeed to have double the weight of a normal person (even though they are like 4 times a normal person's size). It's not "How much do you weigh?" people should ask. It's "How many cubic liters do you displace?". Excercise is the natural way of weight loss, since after all wild people of the fields ate whatever they wanted but they had to track it through the wild and kill it with a rock first. I suggest eating whatever you want, but putting it on one of those dog track mechanical rabbits so you have to run a few laps to get the food. That's what they do for big cats in captivity.

[alien space marine]

when I was in capable of eating solid food for a months after my Jaw reconstructive surgerey , I can tell you the countless times I thought of eating a frie only to remeber I cant open my mouth for another months was incredibly painful. I lost 30 pounds though:D

[Darunia]

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

My, this thread has mellowed out.

[Geno]

People can say "goddamn" or any variation thereof and you don't see Christians or any other religion taking it to the Supreme Court, do you? So if it's okay to use the lord's name in vein, what's wrong with "under God" being in the pledge or "In God We Trust" being on money? I think that atheists or anyone else who isn't too fond of the phrase "under God" should just be silent during that part of the pledge. I really find it a load of crap that we can't have prayer in school because of freedom of religion. Does that make any sense? Not to me, it doesn't. Basically, here's how our society works: if the majority of the country is Christian, then Christianity is forbidden. If the majority of the country is heterosexual, then it's okay to be heterophobic, but it's not okay to be homophobic. If the majority of the nation is white, then it's okay to make fun of whites despite that you're offending most of the nation, but anything slightly resembling discrimination against another race is to be taken to the Supreme Court. It's total nonsense. If we go to France, we have to speak French. We can't demand that everyone else speak English. Same if we go to Spain. We have to learn to speak Spanish. If we go to Portugal, we have to be able to speak Portugese. So when people come to the United States, why can't they learn our language? Most of the people here speak English... why should we change the way our country works just because someone from a different culture decided to start living here? In some countries, you'd be beheaded if you opposed the everyday lifestyle. So I say, let Muslims practice Islam, let Christians practice Christianity, let Jews practice Judaism, let Buddhists practice Buddhism, let Hindus practice Hinduism, and let atheists practice atheism wherever they want whenever they want. They should all be able to practice their religions (or lack thereof) freely and in anyone's presence without others with different beliefs starting some big boycott.

[alien space marine]

Geno you bring up some good points. If people dont feel confortable saying "under god" ,then dont say it or ignore the phraise.

As Athiest dont mind saying "God damn it!" or "jesus christ!" or "oh my god".

[A Black Falcon]

*sigh*

I thought we agreed to end this... and now this guy appears and just repeats what Weltall said before... well go back there and read my replies. They're the exact same opinions so I don't think it needs a new reply...

[Geno]

I've known Weltall, EdenMaster, Darunia, and some others here for quite some time, and I just recently started coming here. Seeing the length of this thread, I of course didn't read every post; I just added in my two cents. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of my points were already brought up by others. If there was an agreement to end this discussion, I now hereby agree to abide by it.

[Darunia]

If people dont feel confortable saying "under god", then dont say it or ignore the phraise.

As Athiest dont mind saying "God damn it!" or "jesus christ!" or "oh my god".

That's not quite the same thing; swearing and saying god damn is just that, swearing...just words. When our entire nation is unified under the words Under God, it's not QUITE the same thing...the pledge speaks as if all Americans are Christian, and if not, then anti-American.

[A Black Falcon]

Oh, and it won't change your opinion (since it is true for many people) but I don't swear either...

[Sacred Jellybean]

I have a question.

Okay... some here have claimed that god has given us free thought, and therefore we have the choice to be saved, yadda yadda yadda. Well, what about the divine plan? If everything's supposedly predetermined, then we aren't free- we're simply acting out our roles in the divine plan. That also makes god hypocritical for becoming envious of "other gods", if s/he/it's the one who determined our actions beforehand.

[Darunia]

I'd like to hear from god or Jesus on this issue...maybe they'll come in here and post their own thoughts.

[Weltall]

Originally posted by Darunia
I'd like to hear from god or Jesus on this issue...maybe they'll come in here and post their own thoughts.

I already did. :jesus: