The Pledge of Allegiance

[Sacred Jellybean]

*Darunia and ASM both shut up, letting the thread die with the miniscule amount of dignity it has left*

[A Black Falcon]

Very good idea.

[Darunia]

*Darunia smacks Sacred Jellybean and ABF for their insolence.*

[EdenMaster]

*bump*

*is killed by several members of TC for bringing back this accursed thread*

[alien space marine]

12 pages of pure pointless shit!

[Great Rumbler]

Why do you change your avatar so much?

Oh yeah, and...

*kills EdenMaster for bringing back this accursed thread*

[A Black Falcon]

Not this one again...

[Weltall]

It took 457 posts but for once I agree with ABF in this thread :p

[Darunia]

*Beats Eden Master for reopening this accursed thread; waits to see if anyone else will start using it again...*

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, I think that's the first time for that in this thread, Weltall... :)

[Darunia]

So, how about them Iraqis, 'eh? Man do they suck.

[OB1]

[alien space marine]

no I believe they swallow dust....:D

[A Black Falcon]

I'd blame a lot of the violence and looting on the fact that just before losing power Sadaam emptied the prisons... and it all snowballed from there...

[EdenMaster]

Originally posted by Darunia
*Beats Eden Master for reopening this accursed thread; waits to see if anyone else will start using it again...*

All the years you've known me...you STILL find the need to put a space in my name??

[Weltall]

Originally posted by EdenMaster
All the years you've known me...you STILL find the need to put a space in my name??

Hell, even people here my simple, seven-letter name is mispelled ;)

[A Black Falcon]

Don't feel bad... he also hasn't figured out that there are these "quote" things that look nicer than boldface words...

[Darunia]

[/B]Hell, even people here my simple, seven-letter name is mispelled [/B]

Oh you mean liked spelling WELTALL as WELTAii ???

Don't feel bad... he also hasn't figured out that there are these "quote" things that look nicer than boldface words...

Here's my ass. Start sucking it.

All the years you've known me...you STILL find the need to put a space in my name??

After all these years you've known me, do you think I care, Eden Master? :p

[A Black Falcon]

Weltall is better than Weltaii...

Uh, why DID you change it anyway?

[alien space marine]

weltaii probaily is welty.

<i>Edit: Gee, you think?</i>

[EdenMaster]

Originally posted by Darunia
After all these years you've known me, do you think I care, Eden Master? :p

Poor, stupid Airnurad. I have no doubt that you could probably care less about the spelling of my name, however I thought your rock-hard Goron head could comprehend it. I see I was mistaken.

Oh, and you might want to watch out who you hand your ass to. ABF is liable to run off with it and post it on eBay. I don't know much about Goron physiology, but I do believe that having an ass is essential.

[Sacred Jellybean]

As Weltaii's mentor, I can assure you the name change was my idea. Weltaii sounds much cooler, anyway... it sounds... exotic.

[Great Rumbler]

MOBLINS!! MOBLINS!! MOBLINS!! EVERYWHERE WITH THE MOBLINS!! AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! MOBLINS!!! MOBINS ARE COOL!! THEY'RE LIKE YOUR BEST FRIENDS EXCEPT THEY TRY TO KILL YOU!! MOBLINS!! MOBLINS!! WOOOOHHHH!!! MOBLINS!!! MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!! BIG MOBLINS SMALL MOBLINS THEY LOOK DIFFERENT BUT THEY'RE REALLY ALL THE SA-AME!! MOBLINS!! MOBLINS STEAK ON A WHEAT BREAD IS THE BEST!! BUT SOMETIMES THEY AREN'T DEAD AND THEY COME BACK TO LIFE AND STEAL ALL YOU INK PENS, THOSE DIRTY SKAMPS!! THEY GO TO YOUR HOUSE, COME INTO YOU KITCHEN, KICK YOUR DOG, AND THEN THEY STEAL YOUR INK PENS!! I'M TOTALLY SERIOUS SOME GUY ON THE STREET TOLD AND HE WOULDN'T LIE BECUASE HE TOLD ME HE WAS RICH AND RICH PEOPLE DON'T LIE BECUASE THEY'RE RICH AND THEY HAVE MOBLINS!!!


....


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..

.


moblins!

[Weltall]

Originally posted by Sacred Jellybean
As Weltaii's mentor, I can assure you the name change was my idea. Weltaii sounds much cooler, anyway... it sounds... exotic.

Yeah, i know, especially if you pronounce it like Hawaii.

Weltaii. I have a name that would make you think I get laid far more than I actually do.

[EdenMaster]

If you say so.

[A Black Falcon]

One of the only threads where we're able to stay on the same topic for more than one page. Not that it was the topic of the first post...

Actually, the topic of the first post was an attempt to set off a religion "debate". So the first 11 pages were almost all on topic. :)

[Darunia]

Great Rumbler, what are you trying to say?

[Great Rumbler]

[Geno]

Like every thread, someone has to change its topic to complete randomness. So, I guess I'll add in my two cents of randomness.

...

...

...

THE BACON IS COMING! NO SAUSAGE IS SAFE! IT HAS COME TO EAT YOUR BABIES! RUUUUUUUUN!

[alien space marine]

Its not bacon its begcon.

[CrB3k5]

I myself don't believe in the Christianity way of religion or any organized religion for that matter, but in my search of trying to prove that God does not exist(which in turn lead me to this thread) I wound up finding an article that proves a god DOES exist (through scientific methods at least), not necessarily the god of christianity, but the Creator of all.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1995/r&r9505a.htm

this is just part one of a three part article.

[Weltall]

It's been gone for a whole year, but now it's back! :kiss:

[alien space marine]

Evolutionist even those high up in the scientific world, Said proving god doesnt exist isnt part of what their doing nore was it Darwins, You cannot prove that creationism or weither it is a diety or a alien from outer space didnt play a role in bringing life to this planet.You cant prove it but it would be ignorant to deny the possibility.

I wont make a huge novel about this, You dont believe in god fine, I dont care. Some Evolution may exist but when you go down deeper its harder to prove that nature was guided without a inteligence designing and crafting it.

Jesus teachings have alot of benificial value,Its been a guide to my life and it has made me happy , Ive been abled to avoid conflicts and problems with other people and myself following Jesus peaceful loving and restrained pasifist attitude. If you opponents of it would stop nit picking and actually study his philosophies and teaching you could learn alot.

When someone has taken Jesus teachings to heart and understood its logic good things have happend, Mahatma Ghandi studied and based alot of his pasifistic beliefs on Jesus's even though he never believed he was his savior he was humble enough to see its true value.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
(checks all his previous post before page 13 , feels shame for being so stupid, If only I had realized daily exercise increases blood flow to the brain, I would not have been so spaced out making this shit.)

[Dark Jaguar]

Sorry Cr...whatever the karp your name is. But, even as a Christian, I must point out, logically, that from a scientific perspective that article is fundamentally flawed. It goes onward under one assumption, that science holds that the universe can't sufficiently explain it's own existance on it's own terms. Steven Hawking would beg to differ, nay, he would DEMAND difference. Via his latest models of the universe, he has reached the conclusion that the universe very well CAN exist without a cause being needed. Essentially, he's found a model that, similar to God, exists as an eternal being with no beginning and no end. In this model, time has a sort of imaginary dimension that is lateral to the "real" time direction. The big bang and the heat death elements of the universe are not an actual start and end in this model, but rather two poles, like a planet. And, like a planet, the poles do not funcion as true starts and ends but are just there. The universe takes a planet-like shape in this model based on probable realities. At one end, the only possible reality is the single point there is, there are no other variations, there is no "more crunched" universe than infinity. At the other end, where the universe has evaporated away infinitly, there are no other possibilities beyond that. The universe can't be dissolved further than infinity. As you get away from each pole, the configurations of the universe's matter get more and more varied as the universe gets further from that pole. Near the crunch end, where it's still very small, the matter can be in various different places, but the arrangements still aren't nearly as varied as when matter has spread out more with more room to be in varied places. Near the end, when things are REALLY spread out, the number of arrangements shrink because, though there are still many varied configurations that are possible, there aren't as many because the ones where all the matter is closer together are not possible in this case, since the universe has to be spread out this far that means matter has to be in configurations that sorta form a large surrounding sphere of matter on the outside, leaving only a bit that can be in varied locations in the vast, yet creamily empty, center. Essentially, this model, where POSSIBLE realities are considered the second dimension of time, and the ACTUAL reality path the universe takes is considered the 1st dimension of it (and the one that matters), ends up being a self sustaining reality with two fixed poles that exists all on it's own without needing to be created. There is no time "before" the big bang because the universe can't be crushed any further, and the only thing that makes time matter are the possible realities. It would seem that time flows from the crushed reality to the spread out reality from our perspective though. That still needs explaining.

Anyway, as a Christian I do believe the universe requires God and so do the people in it, but my point here was that there IS in fact a way to view the universe that makes it self explaining and self sustaining, which, considering that was the entire basis of that argument that supposedly prooves the existance of God, pretty much tears it apart from the foundation.

Then again, as Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy shows, if God ever proved his own existance, that would be the ultimate proof He doens't exist :D, since Christianity is based on faith.

[A Black Falcon]

Then again, as Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy shows, if God ever proved his own existance, that would be the ultimate proof He doens't exist , since Christianity is based on faith.

Which is why I am sure that while science will continue to define out how the mechanical model of the universe works (in fact as well as in theory), people won't stop believing in God just because it will become increasingly obvious that laws will define (even better than we know now) how the universe has developed. No amount of proof that the universe's existance can be explained with science can defeat something as simple as belief.

[alien space marine]

Which is why I am sure that while science will continue to define out how the mechanical model of the universe works (in fact as well as in theory), people won't stop believing in God just because it will become increasingly obvious that laws will define (even better than we know now) how the universe has developed. No amount of proof that the universe's existance can be explained with science can defeat something as simple as belief.

Scientist have always said we have barely scratched the surface of the universe, We cant make conclusions with our limited knowledge.

How did anything ever start?Out of Total black Nothingness what made the Photons and protons? What made the things that made the protons and photons? What made the things that made the things that made the things that made the things. You see my point its endless mind boggling.
If some things do exist with no begining or a end,There is always a opportunity for god.

Our brains may be to small and incapable of ever knowing, Its like Time paradoxes they make no sense apparently Black holes do it everyday.

[A Black Falcon]

As I've said a million times. We know some things now. All of it points towards the fact that mechanical models explain things and as we learn more about the universe we are able to expand them and find new laws. This will continue. We will continue to learn more about how the universe developed. Laws and facts will be found (not all of this will happen in our lifetimes or anything, I'm talking long term...) that explain just about everything in the physical universe, I am sure. As I've said many times before, saying "we don't know and aren't able to find out right now so that means that we can't know and it is not explainable by a scientific model" is one of the most idiotic things anyone could say. Oh, go ahead and say you believe in God, but trying to even imply what you are? It's foolish and very, very wrong. I'll just have to repeat again that not being able to know now is NOT proof that we can't know or scientific models will never fit! I'd say quite the opposite -- that the fact that as we do learn more about things we always find ways to explain physics with rules strongly hints towards the idea that as we learn even more that will definitely continue.

[Dark Jaguar]

asm, the current models don't need a way to explain before the big bang, because there is no before, just like there is nothing BEFORE the north pole of the planet (magnetic or rotational, pick whichever you want, same concept). It's basically saying that considering what's before the big bang is like saying "but what was there before the north pole of the Earth? what's norther than north?". It would make no sense. Essentially, they are saying the universe, and all the realities within (other realities are not other universes, because the term universe encompasses EVERYTHING that is, including alternate realities), are a closed system. The start and end are only as we see it, but it's basically a large sphere of existance that just has always been and always will be. Why does it exist? That's an interesting question of course. "It just does" simply isn't enough from a scientific perspective. However, they are basically saying they don't NEED to explain how the matter of the big bang got there, because there is no time before that moment. It simply is one of many moments that all exist, in various forms. Time itself is basically just the process of travelling from one side to the other, so time itself does NOT exist before the big bang or after the heat death (otherwise called "the wimper"). Nothing exists outside these two extremes, according to this model. I myself hold that God exists, and I go on it in faith, but yes, from a scientific perspective God's simply existing without time and the universe's existing without time are basically the same claim. The only difference is God has become superfluous to the whole thing, an uneeded thing so far in the explaining, because just saying "oh yes, the universe exists because of God" still leaves God to be explained as He exists in the same manner. As a person of faith, the fact that believing this doesn't comply with Occam's razor doesn't really matter to me. I'm happy with an extra being not really needed as far as science, because as far as spirituality goes, He is NOT superfluous to me.

[A Black Falcon]

Can't really argue with that.

All I will say is that we really don't know what happened around the Big Bang... that's an intersting theory, for sure, DJ, but I am also sure that it could be something else. It does, though, definitely look like the universe will spread out forever... but the details of it and what led to the Big Bang? We really don't know...

[Dark Jaguar]

As I said, current models basically state that there is no time before the big bang, it's just one END of it, and time is more of a self contained bubble than anything else. Essentially, at the big bang end, or rather the INSTANT before where everything is one, it doesn't just collapse the 3 dimensions of space into infinite smallness, it ALSO collapses time itself into that point, forming a closed circle, and thus isn't really a beginning. Essentially, if nothing can change, there is no time. Time itself is the rate of change, so when things stop changing, time ceases to exist. Perhaps I'm not explaining it very well...

http://library.thinkquest.org/27930/time.htm Here's a link that I think does a decent job of it, but I didn't really search very hard to find it.

[alien space marine]

As I've said a million times. We know some things now. All of it points towards the fact that mechanical models explain things and as we learn more about the universe we are able to expand them and find new laws. This will continue. We will continue to learn more about how the universe developed. Laws and facts will be found (not all of this will happen in our lifetimes or anything, I'm talking long term...) that explain just about everything in the physical universe, I am sure. As I've said many times before, saying "we don't know and aren't able to find out right now so that means that we can't know and it is not explainable by a scientific model" is one of the most idiotic things anyone could say. Oh, go ahead and say you believe in God, but trying to even imply what you are? It's foolish and very, very wrong. I'll just have to repeat again that not being able to know now is NOT proof that we can't know or scientific models will never fit! I'd say quite the opposite -- that the fact that as we do learn more about things we always find ways to explain physics with rules strongly hints towards the idea that as we learn even more that will definitely continue.

You already think you know everything, Why bother looking now?

You already said you think that the universe is to big not to have other life out there like on earth, You dont know that for sure. Clearly some faith is needed, We dont know wormholes exist but people believe in it. It must be very wrong and wicked to have faith in somthing you cant prove just yet.

In your mind I am a nut job my beliefs are bull shit! A athiest once told me that "science can tell us were we came from but not who we are or were we are going".

I am concerned with the philosophical and spiritual aspects I leave science up to you.Science doesnt teach right and wrong or how to change your thinking and be a good person,Jesus said drink from my well of water you will never be thirsty or have endless want and need happiness will be yours.He isnt talking about a real pool of water, He is saying you want to find true happiness follow me and I will show you.

The Bible was never meant as a scientific book , Its not to be taken literaly out of context. But unlike other holy books there is no absurdities like elephants holding up the planet or grabing a tornado with a rope and pulling it.
Isiah said the earth was circular and hanged on nothing years before any attempt to believe the world was round and prove it like columbus.

But I cant prove to you god exist since I am not a scientist,Untill the day you can build me a time machine and we can go back to meet adam and eve weither they are humans or apes stop calling my beliefs bull shit and me a simple minded piece of garbage.You dont know everything neither did Albert Einstein alot of your knowledge of the universe comes from him but he was a believer in god himself in his last few years he never went out to disprove god or redicule peoples beliefs.

[Dark Jaguar]

asm, not sure where you heard it, but the average scientist doesn't actually believe wormholes exist, that is, as a fact. As you said, no proof, it's all theoretical. SEEMS to make sense, but it's not something that's been proven, and until then, scientists just consider it an interesting possibility. Things CAN be proven without actually seeing them yourself as well. That's how people are convicted of crimes for example. Remember, the entire legal system is based on science, as anything else would be stupid (well, that's what the legal system is supposed to be based on, but very often juries tend to think the lawyer saying the prettier speech should be considered right, even when they deep down know that it doesn't make sense, they think "well, he said it better, so I guess we should agree with that guy...").

[A Black Falcon]

You already think you know everything, Why bother looking now?

If you think that you know nothing about science.

The Bible was never meant as a scientific book , Its not to be taken literaly out of context. But unlike other holy books there is no absurdities like elephants holding up the planet or grabing a tornado with a rope and pulling it.
Isiah said the earth was circular and hanged on nothing years before any attempt to believe the world was round and prove it like columbus.

I guess you missed the Old Testament, then? :)

I am concerned with the philosophical and spiritual aspects I leave science up to you.Science doesnt teach right and wrong or how to change your thinking and be a good person,Jesus said drink from my well of water you will never be thirsty or have endless want and need happiness will be yours.He isnt talking about a real pool of water, He is saying you want to find true happiness follow me and I will show you.

Wanting to believe that there is something greater than themselves is probably the biggest reason that humanity developed and continues to believe in religion, I think... with our higher intelligence comes more questions and more insecurity and a belief like this is a very nice one to have.

Oh, as I have said before religion isn't all bad. The community aspect is very good. Churches bring people together and provide something that many people can't get elsewhere... I know I certainly appreciated it in the many years I spent going to UU church...

[alien space marine]

asm, not sure where you heard it, but the average scientist doesn't actually believe wormholes exist, that is, as a fact. As you said, no proof, it's all theoretical. SEEMS to make sense, but it's not something that's been proven, and until then, scientists just consider it an interesting possibility.

<

Some do ,Since Black holes exists its not impossible, Just very improbable to find.Most who do believe it were Sci FI writers studying the original theories and researching it.Clearly warp speed was becoming impossible to do but they still needed ways to tell their stories,But some believe they exist . probaily not the main scientific world but small groups of it.

I guess you missed the Old Testament, then?

?

Finally!

Let this thread die now!

We made our points clear!

[A Black Falcon]

?

God talks to people. Miracles. Moses splitting the waves. The creation. Nope, no absurdities there (if you take them literally, that is)... :)

My point is that such things are in the eye of the beholder.

[alien space marine]

God talks to people. Miracles. Moses splitting the waves. The creation. Nope, no absurdities there (if you take them literally, that is)...

Scientist created a machine that split a bucket of water into half like the moses story.Which I had one would really save me time comuting to work just drive through that opening in the river and save the trouble of going into the traffic.

Whats wrong with God talking to people? If you didnt believe in god then to you it would be absurd.


Now you know why papper was made , It didnt hurt as much getting whacked in the head with it.

Imagine if the dog pooped in the house in ancient times , Did the owner grab a stone tablet and tried to hit him with it? Since newspappers didnt exist.

[A Black Falcon]

Scientist created a machine that split a bucket of water into half like the moses story.Which I had one would really save me time comuting to work just drive through that opening in the river and save the trouble of going into the traffic.

Whats wrong with God talking to people? If you didnt believe in god then to you it would be absurd.

I don't see how God destroying towns and talking to people is so much less absurd than the world being held up by a giant turtle... you only think there's a difference because faith says "no other truth can be true"... but that's not really my point. As I said, my point is that to each religion their mythology seems logical and the only right way, while to others some aspects can seem very strange. That's what I meant there.

Imagine if the dog pooped in the house in ancient times , Did the owner grab a stone tablet and tried to hit him with it? Since newspappers didnt exist.

Probably not, because most people didn't have any written material in their homes... :)

[Dark Jaguar]

asm, provide a link for this. I need to know about this claimed thing they did. Saying they "created a machine" is no where near specific enough. Did the device simply blow air in a wide blast that basically cut the water into two parts? Something like that done in the actual miracle would likely have blown anyone walking there into the water as well. Did it do something else? There's not enough info, and indeed I might end up chalking this up to you just hearing it, exactly as you told it to us from 3rd party with no reputable sources themselves to back it up.

Meanwhile, I have to say ASM, trying to back up miracles by saying "technically it could be done this way" is sorta contrary to the entire concept of what God is doing. God, the Christian God, would not HAVE to obey the laws of physics, which He Himself dictated to begin with. So saying it's physically possible in no way supports the Bible, as God could easily have just made it happen anyway. Indeed, God's miracles are always in violation of physical law, and there's no problem with that from my viewpoint because God is ABOVE said laws. Perhaps a better way to say it is that God rewrites the code of the universe for these little exceptions whenever he wishes, like creating a special object in some program that acts in a completely different way than similar objects.

[alien space marine]

asm, provide a link for this. I need to know about this claimed thing they did. Saying they "created a machine" is no where near specific enough. Did the device simply blow air in a wide blast that basically cut the water into two parts? Something like that done in the actual miracle would likely have blown anyone walking there into the water as well. Did it do something else? There's not enough info, and indeed I might end up chalking this up to you just hearing it, exactly as you told it to us from 3rd party with no reputable sources themselves to back it up.

Meanwhile, I have to say ASM, trying to back up miracles by saying "technically it could be done this way" is sorta contrary to the entire concept of what God is doing. God, the Christian God, would not HAVE to obey the laws of physics, which He Himself dictated to begin with. So saying it's physically possible in no way supports the Bible, as God could easily have just made it happen anyway. Indeed, God's miracles are always in violation of physical law, and there's no problem with that from my viewpoint because God is ABOVE said laws. Perhaps a better way to say it is that God rewrites the code of the universe for these little exceptions whenever he wishes, like creating a special object in some program that acts in a completely different way than similar objects.

I tried looking for a link for it , But I kept getting Geek sites :(
I saw it on the discovery channel and it did not involve wind in anyway!
Somthing to do with electrical particles but in order to make a hole sea do that you needed the power of a star.Does God need to violate Physics to make a miracle? He wrote the law on Physics making the ocean split is as easy as making kraft dinner for him.

Soon as I find the link I'll post it.

[Weltall]

Jesus hates when we fight.