Marriage equality is unstoppable.

[Weltall]

It seems like, every week, there's another state with its discrimination statutes being struck down. My current state of Kentucky is now making its baby steps, as it now has to recognize same sex marriages from outside states. My former state of Virginia's ban on same-sex marriage has been struck down by a federal judge (and the new Attorney General is refusing to defend the ban).

This is pretty amazing. It looks like the homophobes are losing the war, not just battle after battle.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, the tide in the courts particularly seems to be turning very quickly... it's quite impressive. It's something like three straight decisions now where courts struck down anti-gay laws! At this rate it won't be long at all until the Supreme Court is basically forced to address the issue again, and they'll probably continue this trend. It's pretty fantastic.

This was inevitable, though. Sure, many people are anti-gay, but most of the mare older; among younger people, even many conservatives are okay with gay rights, I think. It's not at all like the abortion issue in that respect -- gay rights are an issue where America as a whole has moved very quickly towards support. And we're now seeing the results of that. It's amazing that it's going so quickly, but that's great. I hope full legalization of marriage equality happens soon.
'

[Dark Jaguar]

The homophobes have realized this, but America's blindness to anything outside it's borders has become their new weapon.

Look at what's been happening in other countries. As much as one might point a finger at their internal politics, there's something a bit more insidious at work here. It seems a lot of the gay hating groups have specifically targeted countries that, frankly, probably didn't put much thought into "the gay" until they came along. Now, one country after another is being convinced to target homosexuals with all sorts of laws. Recently, with the olympics, Russia is in the news more than others, but their terrible laws are shockingly tame compared to what's going on in places like Uganda.

America's sliding into a progressive attitude towards gay rights. At this point, it is inevitable. However, now it has entered the world wide stage and the wrong groups have made the preemptive strike on this ground.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, unfortunately, you're right. While gay rights go in the right direction here, in countries like those in Africa, or in Russia, things are getting a lot worse, and don't look likely to get better anywhere near as quickly as they did here. I hope that's wrong, because in the US the trend in favor of gay rights has shifted VERY quickly, but those places just don't have the same base of support we did here, I think... and I;m sure you're right that some American homophobes are spreading their hate abroad. Awful stuff.

[Dark Jaguar]

It's been well documented at this point. Countries that previously had no strong anti-gay movement are actually developing them now because of America's chief export of homophobes. It is not just "some", but rather a concentrated movement, with all the same backing and effort put into enacting this shift in foreign public opinion once reserved for proselytizing christianity.

Please read this link for more information on just how incredibly powerful this particular effort has become. It is a fact, their main strategy at this point seems to be:

A: Generate homophobia in nations that previously had no standing, and hadn't heard "our" arguments before, thus not being culturally "inoculated" against such stupidity.

B: Once this reaches a certain threshold, use this worldwide consensus to pressure the US to adopt "popular worldwide opinion".

C: Profit?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cong...f_Families

What I'm saying is that in the US the battle is getting close to an end (in the legal front, as the civil rights movement has taught us, culturally it takes far longer to solve the problems as they tend to just go underground and unsaid in public). So, in order to deal with this we need to start countering these worldwide efforts. An organized counter-group needs to get formed, or this will end up being a very small victory on the world stage.

[Weltall]

A solution might be to offer refuge to LGBTQ people and their families from places like Uganda and Russia, to let them know that they have a place they can be who they are and contribute to the success of a country that recognizes their basic human rights.

[Dark Jaguar]

That... is a very good idea! I mean, it won't help change things in their home countries, but it is certainly something the USA could do to make their position clear, to "reverse" the tide with international pressure in the other direction. It's the sort of thing that the right-wing might secretly hate but would have a very hard time actually publicly denouncing.

[Sacred Jellybean]

Sure they could, they'd say "but IMMIGRATION! OBUMMER can't even push through immigration reform, now he wants to offer refugees a place in my living room? Not in MY backyard!" Dogwhistle racism, business as usual, etc.

It's a good idea though.

[Dark Jaguar]

I'm not saying they couldn't make some sort of twisted argument, but I don't think that's the one they'd make. Tortured, yes, but it would need to be something not quite so obviously stupid. Maybe something like... not even MENTIONING the "these people would die if they stayed there" part and instead bringing up how this makes us "look bad" and doesn't stand for "moral values". Pretty sure they wouldn't try to dress up a REFUGEE CAMP as "illegal immigration" though...

[Sacred Jellybean]

Not that exactly, but you would see xenophobic sentiment come from a segment of politicians and pundits. The same players that bring immigration reform to a screeching halt every year. Republicans are shameless and I wouldn't put it past Mitch McConnell to take potshots at an idea like that.

[Dark Jaguar]

Well, after some thought I remembered they actually were making a similar argument when there was a bigger push to actually TRY the illegally detained prisoners in a court of law. The fear was having "them" here on "US soil". Nothing specific, just vague "fear" they might somehow kill people or something.

[A Black Falcon]

We can't even get even the mildest immigration bill passed because the Republican party has decided to obey their xenophobic base, and you want something connected to gay rights, while several Republican states are suing the government to stop gay marriage? (That xenophobic base is getting steadily smaller all the time, as the US's minority population expands, but they're still key now, so the Republican party won't even consider breaking with the racists.)

But yeah, it's a good idea. It'd be great to do that eventually -- because gay marriage is coming soon in the US, but as you say, it'll be a long time before gay rights move forward in places like sub-Saharan Africa, the Islamic world, or Russia. Trying some things to encourage them to move forward will be important in the future, yeah.

[Weltall]

I'm absolutely behind Republicans continuing to fight immigration and marriage equality. Honestly, if they opted to evolve on these matters, it would only mean we'd be stuck with a relevant Republican party that much longer.

I hate what they're doing, but if it means a long-term future without this toxic brand of conservatism, it's probably for the best. Immigration reform and marriage equality are pretty much a given by this point anyway. They only delay the inevitable.

[Dark Jaguar]

The immigration thing is silly. Yes, all US citizens should pay taxes. The solution is just to make the illegal immigrants into legal immigrants, with a paper trail and an expectation to pay taxes (and as an added bonus, a requirement that their bosses pay them at least minimum wage).

That handled, we set up a streamlined and proper process for future immigrants to enter a southern border based US customs and be properly passed into the nation, with all the standard checks for disease and so on.

Beyond the tax thing, any other complaint about the current wave of immigrants is no different than every single other wave of immigrants the US has ever had.

[Sacred Jellybean]

White people ain't rutting as much, let the Hispanic immigrants pick up the slack. I see no problem with this, but some people are Concerned for our Heritage and Cultural Purity. Or are open, unflinching racists.

[Dark Jaguar]

"Rutting"?

[A Black Falcon]

You don't know slang?

[Dark Jaguar]

Oh yes, I forgot, you either know ALL the slang, ever, or none of it at all.

[Great Rumbler]

It's not even slang, though. It's an actual, real word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rut_(mammal...roduction)

[Dark Jaguar]

Fair enough, but it doesn't really work in context.

[Sacred Jellybean]

Yes it does? Population growth is declining amongst white people (or so I thought), but Hispanic culture entails having big families. They'll help replenish the supply of meat bodies to consume and keep the economy flourishing. That's why they'll eventually be a majority.

[A Black Falcon]

Yes it does? Population growth is declining amongst white people (or so I thought), but Hispanic culture entails having big families. They'll help replenish the supply of meat bodies to consume and keep the economy flourishing. That's why they'll eventually be a majority.

You are right, the non-Hispanic white American population, as a percent of the total US population, is on the decline, while the Hispanic population is rising rapidly. And yeah, it means changes... though they are Americanizing, so the paranoid right-wing fears of the 'death of America' or something are, of course, not happening.

[Sacred Jellybean]

It's just fun to see people repeat history and not grasp the irony. I don't understand how people can brush off such simple facts. I guess it's "white exceptionalism". Our ancestors shouldn't have had to face discrimination (even though they were considered "black" in their time). It's different for these brown people here because reasons. Or "I don't like people who aren't like me, they need to speak english", etc etc. It's one of the forms of racism that you can be overt about, even make part of a major political platform, and no one bats an eye. It's strange to think about. That anyone is concerned about "legal status", or not having papers, is a poor cloak for anyone who pays attention.

[Dark Jaguar]

Oh now I see what you were getting at.

It really doesn't matter which genes are most reflected in the population (excepting anything that's actually harmful, which aren't connected to any external traits racists are paying attention to). HOWEVER, I would take exception to the notion that anyone actually needs to "pick up the slack" when it comes to having kids. As a species, we'd be a LOT better off if EVERYONE cut down on how many kids they had. World population is 7 billion, and frankly, we've already passed the tipping point of sustainable population. It would be better if we stopped making so many people.

[Weltall]

So, I don't know if you heard, because nobody's really talking about it anywhere, but

HAPPY HOMO MARRIAGE DAY!

[SIZE=1](Suck it, Weltall 2004)[/SIZE]

[Dark Jaguar]

Indeed. Heck even back then, I was hard pressed to actually come up with a reason. In all honesty, I basically had resolved that I wasn't disgusted and couldn't think of a single harmful thing about it, and just decided that biblical commands like that were just a "test of obedience". The knowledge of the harm it did to those under that "test" came later.

This is good news, great news actually. I really don't have much to add to the "good" part that hasn't already been said all over the internet, so I'll talk about the bad and kinda ruin it for everyone. Well, I waited a few days first, didn't I?

The bad news is, 5 people were all that stood between marriage for all and taking a two decade leap backwards. The decision was 5-4. That's a pretty narrow margin. In actual fact, 4 of the pro-side were pretty much sure things anyway, leaving the fate of every gay person in America up to a single person. That's kinda a close call for something that important. Even with this decision and it's (correct) interpretation of constitutional law, there is wiggle room for amendments. In that spirit, I think that after the dust has settled it may be best to specifically pass a constitutional amendment promising this sort of recognition. Sure, the constitution when interpreted correctly SHOULD protect their rights already, but then again the constitution as originally written SHOULD have prohibited slavery, and promised the vote to everyone equally. Ultimately, we needed a few extra amendments for very SPECIFIC cases. In the past, I'd have said that's superfluous, but now I see these amendments as "scars", demonstrating our nation's history of terrible mistakes. In a perfect future, our constitution would be interpreted as treating black people and women people as though they were people, but well, that didn't work out until it was FORCED to work out. Amendments banning slavery remind us that at one time such an amendment was shamefully necessary. Heck, even prohibition and it's repeal tell us just how petty a huge majority can be and how quickly the tide of public opinion can turn. If nothing else, an amendment would be VERY hard to repeal.

That said, as things stand right now, there's no chance such an amendment would pass. Further, in 10 or 20 years, no one will see the point in such an amendment (and both parties will be doing their best to pretend that the moment that gay rights were protected by the supreme court is the moment all bigotry against homosexuals stopped). Huh, actually on that last point, bigotry immediately following this ruling has surged. States are desperate to "undo" it even though they lack the power to. Some states are illegally telling state employees they can deny someone a wedding license based on their personal opinions (which is true, but then they should be fired and replaced by someone who will do their job). Others are trying Oklahoma's infamous attempt at doing away with marriage in it's entirety. Yeah, I'm sure the majority of married people are going to side with you on THAT one, just as they totally did here. (For the record, those seeking to get married and those already married here in Oklahoma basically decided they didn't hate gay marriage ENOUGH to want to give up their OWN marriages to stop them, so the proposal died before ever getting a chance to be voted on.) Further, there will be homobigotry (I prefer that term to homophobia, because as empowering as the second term is, the first term tends to be more accurate) and violent acts for a long time to come, if history is anything to go by. Legal protection is only the start.

Next comes the Ts in LGBT. My suggestion is that bathrooms were constructed with the bigotry against them built right in from the start. I say that they all need some construction work done for true equality. Single-seaters will be easy, just make them unisex. It's the "rest rooms" that need the bigger overhaul. First step, convert urinals to stalls and built ACTUAL walls around the toilets like other countries have instead of those shoddy half-hearted half-covering walls they've got now, you know, ones that actually go all the way from floor to ceiling. Next, tear down the wall with the entrance doors. They'll basically become an alcove with a bunch of single user bathrooms in it, and a sink. Under those conditions, gender stops being an issue. (Obviously if there are load bearing structures in the wall, those stay up, and if nothing else they can strip out the door into the main area.) The most expensive part will be doing what America should have been doing anyway and building DECENT stall walls, there's no doubt about that. This will resolve any and all issues with trans rights concerning bathrooms.... but nothing else.

[Dark Jaguar]

As predicted, numerous states are trying to pretend that the supreme court doesn't count... again...

Every time some huge "controversial" decision rears it's head, states try to pretend the chain of command somehow doesn't apply to them. Oklahoma has put words to it, but it takes Texas to actually threaten to carry it out.

[Dark Jaguar]

Marriage equality is stoppable.

Marriage rights are stoppable too.  Now we've got the terrible Walshes of the world trying to revoke "no fault" divorce too.

Every right we have is merely a temporary situation that can be taken at any moment if we drop our guard.  We're all in a boat in rapids paddling as hard as we can just to stay put.

[Weltall]

Let us not drop our guard, then.

But, I still am very skeptical of the ability of conservatives to actually achieve much of anything they really want on this subject. It's something that even a lot of conservatives don't care much about one way or another and a lot of them inclined to resistance just aren't that motivated to spend their energy on a fight they probably won't win. Especially after getting Roe overturned, yeah, that got them what they thought they wanted, and then it cost them an election they couldn't afford to lose (after all, 1,500 baby boomers die every day on average, they stopped making new boomers 60 years ago, and the kids being brought up now generally seem to hate conservatism as a concept. 

So, let us not despair, either.

[Dark Jaguar]

Let us not drop our guard, then.

But, I still am very skeptical of the ability of conservatives to actually achieve much of anything they really want on this subject. It's something that even a lot of conservatives don't care much about one way or another and a lot of them inclined to resistance just aren't that motivated to spend their energy on a fight they probably won't win. Especially after getting Roe overturned, yeah, that got them what they thought they wanted, and then it cost them an election they couldn't afford to lose (after all, 1,500 baby boomers die every day on average, they stopped making new boomers 60 years ago, and the kids being brought up now generally seem to hate conservatism as a concept. 

So, let us not despair, either.

I'm certainly not advocating despair so much as realism.  It's better we're aware that every gain we've made CAN be reversed, so that we don't become complacent.  The long arc of history only bends towards justice because of people loudly and sometimes violently doing everything they can to bend it that way by force.  It's not something that happens automatically.

Indeed, the big attempt conservatives are making right now is the biggest weakness of that bend.  They're directly targeting education itself.  If they succeed there, then we'll have generations of badly taught kids who just keep the status quo.  I LIVED with a bad education.  ABF himself had to TELL me what the "enlightenment" even was, and my first reaction back then was to say it sounded... what was the word I used?  Oh yes, "arrogant".  I'm better now I think, but only because those educational resources still exist.  It's very important those books don't get burned, because that physical record is the only proof we have that we didn't literally create all those facts yesterday.

You know how flat earthers these days say all those photographs of the earth as seen from space are "CG" and if you point out those photos are from the 50's and 60's, they claim they're actually way more recent than that and that there's no proof they're that old?  Well, good news is there IS proof they're that old, and in many cases the proof is our grandparents who witnesses the photos themselves, but we can't count on our grandparents to live forever.  Sorry five year old me...  I honestly see the battle over education to be the absolute most important political fight we're having right now, because literally everything else hinges on it.  If kids don't know that it used to snow more right here in this state, they won't take the hellscape we're turning into right now seriously.  It's only a reality in the face of history.

Anyway, I don't say all this to promote despair, but to light a fire under the collective arse of everyone who reads this (the Tendarse) so that people don't just stand by and wait for history to bend towards justice again on it's own.

[Weltall]

If they succeed there, then we'll have generations of badly taught kids who just keep the status quo.  

Not a chance. Education, along with everything else, is about to be incredibly disrupted. Angry old dinosaurs thinking they can indoctrinate kids in the age of the internet and AI are pissing into the wind. The old 20th century style of educating classrooms full of kids has been sorely in need of replacing anyway, and angry old dinosaurs won't have any idea how to handle what comes next, let alone dictate how it will work. The future is coming at us very, very fast. Like I've been saying it would, since 2009. :)

[Dark Jaguar]

If they succeed there, then we'll have generations of badly taught kids who just keep the status quo.  

Not a chance. Education, along with everything else, is about to be incredibly disrupted. Angry old dinosaurs thinking they can indoctrinate kids in the age of the internet and AI are pissing into the wind. The old 20th century style of educating classrooms full of kids has been sorely in need of replacing anyway, and angry old dinosaurs won't have any idea how to handle what comes next, let alone dictate how it will work. The future is coming at us very, very fast. Like I've been saying it would, since 2009. :)

I'm not convinced relying on kids just randomly roaming the net to get a rounded education is a valid replacement, because have you seen the internet?  Those information silos are real and kids are especially susceptible to becoming trapped in one of them, whether it be some neo-nazi forum or flat earther groups or those "sovereign citizen" types screaming "I do not consent" while being arrested.  AI itself is a danger as well.  From finding better ways to lie to people and spread the lies in convincing ways across numerous sites (and manipulate search results to manufacture even more consensus), AI can be a tool of misinformation quickly.