How about we have some videogame trivia?

[Private Hudson]

Herzog Zwei was not the first RTS game ever.

Cytron Masters, 1980, created by SSI for the Apple 2.

Though in fairness, it doesn't play exactly as current RTS games do. Probably due to the hardware it was on.

[N-Man]

Alright, for that first polygonal game ever: are we considering vector graphics polygons or not?

[Private Hudson]

Flat shaded polygons.

[A Black Falcon]

I've never heard of a RTS before Herzog Zwei... there were TBSes, and wargames, and some realtime wargames, but not RTSes, as far as I know... and I've never heard of that game in discussions of what the first RTS was in articles...

[Sacred Jellybean]

The first game to use flat shaded polygons was Trailblazer, for the Amiga!

Okay, I don't know for sure. I don't even knew if that used vectors or not... but it's a stab in the dark with a .001% chance of being correct.

That was a damned fun game... I wish I could play it again.

[Private Hudson]

Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I've never heard of a RTS before Herzog Zwei... there were TBSes, and wargames, and some realtime wargames, but not RTSes, as far as I know... and I've never heard of that game in discussions of what the first RTS was in articles...

Review of the game

How many of you are becoming a bit jaded with arcade games and other run of the mill Atari software? For those who are, CYTRON MASTERS may well be the answer. It offers a good blend of strategy and arcade-type action that does not finish after a frantic, monster-blasting couple of minutes.

The game is produced by SSI who are renowned for their historically accurate war games and tactical space games. These are better left to dedicated war-gamers however as they require a good understanding of strategic movement and elements of war.

Originally written for the Apple computer, CYTRON MASTERS was to be a straightforward conversion for the Atari, however when the author, Dan Bunten, began the work, he was pleasantly surprised at how much better the Atari was against the Apple! In his own words-'not just a conversion, but a definite upgrade'.

CYTRON MASTERS can be played by one player against the computer or by two players against each other. There are three difficulty levels - novice, master and grand master.

The object of the game is to destroy your opponent's command centre. To enable you to do this, you have at your disposal CYbernetic elecTRONic devices. These are mines, bunkers, shooters and commanders. Also available are missiles and anti-missiles. The action takes place on a battlefield of 38 by 18 spaces. Located in each half is the player's command centre and four power centres. Each Cytron is beamed down onto the battlefield from the command centre and once down begins advancing towards the enemy half. It will move three spaces on its own initially but will then wait for further orders to be moved left, right, back or forward. All commands are input via the joystick from menus displayed below the battlefield.

There are two ways to move your Cytrons - individually or as a group. The latter is by far the most effective. The number of Cytrons you can make is governed by the power you have available. This is shown on a gauge below the battlefield and itself is governed by how many power centres you have. Capture of your opponent's power centres is therefore very useful.

Shooter Cytrons automatically fire at any enemy unit within 3 spaces and each Cytron requires a varying number of hits before it is destroyed. Mine Cytrons explode on impact and are the only unit capable of destroying a command centre. Bunkers are mobile defensive units. To move a group of Cytrons needs the presence of a commander. Missiles hould be used wisely as they use up the most power. Once launched they are directly controlled by the joystick and when detonated will destroy anything within 4 spaces. The only defence is an anti-missile.

This game is not a frenzy of colour and sound but contains some very neat graphics and effects like the scaled-down explosions and laser blasts. It also requires a bit more brain power than the average arcade game but nonetheless is very playable. I have not seen anything else quite like it for the Atari and in that respect it is unique. Definitely one of my top ten Alari games.

[A Black Falcon]

Huh... I don't know about calling it an RTS though based on that description... it sort of looks like the beginnings of one, and should probably be recognized for that, but a RTS? I'm not so sure... with a broad definition of the genre, though, it probably is.

Of course Herzog Zwei (I've played the rom) isn't exactly a modern RTS either -- you can drive the ships, limited control, etc... but it clearly is a precursor to the genre as we know it... and also must have inspired Westwood's Dune 2, which was the first true RTS.

[Private Hudson]

Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Huh... I don't know about calling it an RTS though based on that description... it sort of looks like the beginnings of one, and should probably be recognized for that, but a RTS? I'm not so sure... with a broad definition of the genre, though, it probably is.

I think it sounds exactly like a RTS. Hell, in some ways, it was more advanced than Dune 2 (the ability to move units in groups).

Of course Herzog Zwei (I've played the rom) isn't exactly a modern RTS either -- you can drive the ships, limited control, etc... but it clearly is a precursor to the genre as we know it... and also must have inspired Westwood's Dune 2, which was the first true RTS.

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| Dune 2. Still the best. :)
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[A Black Falcon]

Dune 2 didn't have group movement? Really? Wow... I know it was in C&C and Warcraft I...

Oh, and it sounds like a strategy game, but as close to a simple wargame as a RTS in many ways...

Is there resource management?

I know some "RTSes" don't have it (Myth series, Ground Control) but I think that those are closer to being wargames in a RTS control scheme than RTSes...

[Private Hudson]

Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Dune 2 didn't have group movement? Really? Wow... I know it was in C&C and Warcraft I...

Technically, no.

You see, to send an entire army down to your opponents base in one move, you had to collect all your units together (in a line would make it easier) and then from the very last unit, tell it to follow the unit in front, then it to follow the unit in front and so on and so forth until all the units were following the one person.

Not sure how many other people did that, but that's how my brother and I achieved group movement.

Oh, and it sounds like a strategy game, but as close to a simple wargame as a RTS in many ways...

Is there resource management?

I know some "RTSes" don't have it (Myth series, Ground Control) but I think that those are closer to being wargames in a RTS control scheme than RTSes...

Well like I said I haven't played it, but would love to. They didn't mention it in the review. Even so, like you said, it's a definate precursur to the RTS's of today. You can't really expect a game of yesteryear to be able to implement all the features that modern machine.

[A Black Falcon]

Technically, no.

You see, to send an entire army down to your opponents base in one move, you had to collect all your units together (in a line would make it easier) and then from the very last unit, tell it to follow the unit in front, then it to follow the unit in front and so on and so forth until all the units were following the one person.

Not sure how many other people did that, but that's how my brother and I achieved group movement.

The first RTS I played was Warcraft I... it had group selection, but you could only select 4 units at a time and there was no normal click and drag -- you had to hold a key and click on each unit or hold a key and then you could click and drag... of course you also had to hold the mouse button on the edge of the screen to scroll, which got REALLY annoying...

Well like I said I haven't played it, but would love to. They didn't mention it in the review. Even so, like you said, it's a definate precursur to the RTS's of today. You can't really expect a game of yesteryear to be able to implement all the features that modern machine.

Well, no, you can't. The question becomes, when does it become a RTS? I'd agree that that game is probably the first pre-RTS... but I would say the genre didn't really exist until Dune 2. Herzog Zwei, maybe... but I don't know. That game has a bunch of RTS things, but it is a console game and is part action-ish...

As you say, it really depends on where you draw the line... and I don't know where that line really belongs... same with the Myth games. You control units just like a RTS, but build no buildings and collect no resources, so is it a RTS? Many people say yes, but I've never been sure...

[Private Hudson]

I, Robot