26th June 2003, 6:35 AM
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
For-profit public schools. Which is what they'd pretty much have to be to make your "plan" work. YOU CANNOT SEND EVERYONE TO PRIVATE SCHOOL. AND IF PRIVATE COMPANIES RUN SCHOOLS FOR NO TUITION THEY WANT PROFITS. And those profits just don't come very much, as the companies that tried have learned... so as we said they'd abandon some markets. Leaving us with... nothing. Great!
*sigh* You never get it. You never read between the lines.
If you take all the money now wasted on public education and instead used it as voucher money for private schools, even if taxes had to be raised a bit to cover the extra money, then profits would not be a problem because many children are being paid for by the government. It comes as a simple replacement of the system that already exists. The difference is that the government is paying for the tuition, but not for the schools themselves.
I know that entire paragraph will be ignored in your coming response, but I tried.
Quote:As for private schools, yes, those students do do better... its to be expected -- you have to be fairly rich and/or dedicated to spend that much money, after all...
And for the few students on vouchers it might help but it'd very quickly make the schools they abandon worse by orders of magnitude. Which is EXACTLY the wrong thing to be doing! It doesn't help our nation to let a few succeed while tossing the masses to the wolves! That isn't good policy!
I've already addressed that point.
Quote:You try to convince yourself that funding isn't the problem so you can justify constant cuts in school budgets. Unfortunately, reality shows how wrong you are. Schools with more money do better. That is objective fact. They do better. The students do better. But you want to cut them and then blame it on curriculum? That's absurd!
Sure, schools with more money do better. However, take your average inner-city public school. Even if you sunk extra money into renovating the building and improving the curriculum, that money could not fix the other major problems, the violent atmosphere, the guns and drugs and violence that go a much longer way towards destroying inner-city schools than lack of funding.
Quote:Sure there might be a little grade inflation but its not some epidemic like you make it seem.
There have been programs not only to inflate grades, but inflate SAT scores as well, and it is quite widespread. Standards across the board are dropping all the time.
Quote:"Worthless" programs? I don't think so. Not at all. How are they worthless? Sure students might not like some things much but schools should provide a good varied curriculum that has more than just the basics...
Nintendarse says that schools should not be the arbiters of a children's morals. I somewhat disagree with him on the matter, but what does sex-ed and multiculturalism do? Nothing you learn in those classes will prepare you for your future in the workforce. They don't even teach you any skills (except apparently how to properly use condoms). They are worthless classes, and a waste of taxpayer money. Schools should be teaching students skills to survive in the world, not teaching them about getting laid as early as the age of nine! If those classes were replaced with infinitely more useful classes, such as computer programming or introductory business courses, students would benefit to a much greater extent.
Quote:Not just tossing money at them. Spending it to actively work to improve school quality. It can work... Republicans like you just would never let it be tried. Spend money on public education? Are you insane?
Think of all the money public schooling would have if tax funds weren't wasted on silly environmental protections, anti-tobacco lawsuits, and welfare waste?
It's not our fault, bud. And like in all the programs mentioned above, even if the money were there, it would be laundered and wasted anyway, as it has been for much of the last twenty years.
Quote:Oh, and of course public schools in richer areas are better. That's the way it works -- the more money the schools have the better they do.
And the poor kids get left behind.
Quote:Hmm, I wonder how other schools would go if they were given enough money?
Students would fail in much nicer buildings.
Quote:And if you think you can make public schools private and fund them somehow and all that and have it work better than the current system you're delusional...
Absolutely not. Do you think all parents would get vouchers? I favor the sliding-scale idea, where parents pay a higher percent of the tuition depending on their income. That would take some of the burden off of the government as well, which could be used for even more voucher money. When schools are a private interest, there will be a much higher incentive to keep them in top shape. And of course, since the government will be supplying a lot of their tuition, it would have supervisory roles to keep them in line, without directly controlling them.
Quote: Sex education and multi-culturalism are worthless? Those classes apply most directly to every-day life. Some kids live in environments where it is socially acceptable to have sex at 12 years old. There are a few possible solutions:
1. Tell them what they're doing is bad. This won't work for a sizable portion of the population, as the school is not the primary creator of social mores. The kid will most likely continue to have sex out of a drive for rebellion or a noncaring attitude toward the school's opinion. Of course, if the school systems were Weltall's ideal, the school WOULD be the creator of social mores. The problem I see is that these people will not learn to create their own values. They will constantly be looking for an authority to enforce the values upon them. This often creates a resentment toward any/all authority figures.
2. Teach them how to have safe sex. This will work in a decent portion of the population. Although by doing this, you admit that sex occurs, you've got a bigger net with fewer holes. Everyone's eventually going to have urges to have sex (maybe not Weltall ) but when they do, they'll know how to do it safely to limit the risk of pregnancy and sexually-transmitted diseases.
3. Cut the boy's genetalia off when they turn 10. Surgically replace the genetalia when they're 18. While the boys will be forever sterile (and have pathetically small sex organs), at least they'll be asexual during those awkward teen years!
It's amazing how these issues often relate to a child's relationship with their parents. While conservatives tend to favor a "fatherly" treatment, liberals favor a "motherly" treatment. I've never been given limits by my parents, and, as a result, I've learned to set them myself. Granted, this won't work for everyone, but I can count myself as an pretty good example of how non-authoritarian parenting can work.
Well, in my opinion schools should teach morals, because morals are not universal. There are certain things society accepts and certain things it does not. I know children need to have their own values, but they also need a base to start from, and if they start with no morals, they'll never acquire them on their own.
Now, I don't think it's the school's prerogative to teach kids about sex, especially at the young ages that the programs start (my first sex-ed class was at the age of nine). The school has no obligations to tell a kid anything about sex. It is up to parents to educate their children on that matter.
From my experience, sex-ed classes basically scared the crap out of you sexually, basically telling you that sex is Russian Roulette and if you hit wrong you'll end up with a myriad of colorful venereal diseases (accompanied by colorful, detailed images). And yet, I guess they aren't working because teen sex is always rising.
As for parenting, there is no surefire way to successfully raise a kid. You were raised non-authoritarian and it worked for you. Conversely, I was raised authoritarian, where it was taught to me to respect my parents and their wishes. And I think they did a wonderful job and while I resented it at the time I'm definitely glad they did it that way now, as many of my old highschool friends had devil-may-care parents and half of them are drug addicts now, and total wastes of human beings.
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