14th July 2010, 8:10 PM
Yes, Fittisize, and I'm sure Chinese women who had had their feet crushed in childhood to fit into those miniscule shoes had all kinds of excuses for why it was okay, that's the best way for them to be, etc... it's all lies that have been programmed into them in order to keep them obedient. Don't fall for it!
Absolutely, utterly ridiculous, I completely disagree in every possible way with this quote. Religious symbol? As I explained above, Islam didn't invent veiled women... Christianity and Judaism both used to do similar things, to some degree or another. Islam is just the one that still does it. What do you think, that we should be absolutely culturally relative? If the Aztecs were still around, would you be defending their right to conduct mass human sacrifices or something? Some things are wrong, and sexism is one of those things!
I've heard it said before that it's appropriate that the Islamic calendar says it's the Middle Ages (it's like the 1400s or something by their calendar), because so much of their society is still Medieval... and really, it's true. I don't think we should just accept that and say "That's fine". We should, instead, do what we can to give their women opportunities, give them educations, let (or make) them actually see where they are going...
Overall, I think that things right now are moving in positive directions. In much of the Middle East the status of women is slowly improving. Western pressure, I think, helps that along.
I mean, if they were banning them just because they're an Islamic symbol and for no other reason, I'd agree with you that it's wrong. But that is NOT what is happening here. Again, look at their school religious items ban -- yes, headscarves and burquas probably set it off (because of their sexist meanings primarily), but once implemented they made it consistent, and banned crosses, yarmulkes, etc. as well.
Yeah, so why should we try to do anything? Just give up, improving conditions is hopeless... except it isn't, and that doesn't actually reflect today's world. Europe seems conflicted about whether to resist or give in to this stuff, but some, at least, resist it...
I mean, my point is, Islam is more sexist than Christianity. That is a fact. Their women are oppressed. That they don't know it doesn't matter, you'd expect that because people only know what they have learned. That doesn't make it right... Islam is also much more conservative in other extremely important ways too, like how it it resists accepting the concept of freedom of speech (see things like the death threats to the Danish cartoonist, or the murder of the Dutch filmmaker).
I know that every culture is different, and definitely don't think that we are perfect or that they should be just like us; that isn't my goal at all. As I've said, there actually has been progress in women's and human rights in parts of the Islamic world in recent years. Many Arab countries have elected parliaments now. Many have women elected to those parliaments. Business options, educational options, and more are more than they have ever been for a great number of people. There are now schools for girls in places like Afghanistan where there have never been before, more job options for women in Algeria and many other places, elected parliaments in Kuwait and more, etc. These are all great developments. There are two stories, one of the progress being made and the other of the conservative reaction against it... we must support the side of progress in rights. Islam doesn't have to forever be the extremely reactionary religion that so much of it is today...
I mean, after all, back in the Middle Ages, Christianity was incredibly awful, rightswise. It has come a long way since then. Islam hasn't come as far, but I certainly don't think that that means it can't.
Oh, and yes, this is a slow process. I expect problems between Islam and the West to continue for a long time to come. For as long as a significant force in Islam believes that women should continue to be enslaved and dominated, and that human rights shouldn't really exist, we must oppose elements of Islamic social policy. Remember though -- this isn't stuff from the Koran or something, just like how opposing fundamentalist Mormons isn't saying anything about the contents of the Bible. It's about the rules that have grown up over time... changing such things is certainly difficult, but also certainly not impossible. There is a more liberal wing of Islam, after all.
Oh, the case of Iran... it is an interesting one. Iran today, I believe, is a case of a reactionary government holding back a much more moderate populace. The Iranian people supported conservative revolution in 1979, certainly, but that is not today's Iran. Urban Iranians chafe under the religious laws... it has been obvious for years that the Iranian government rigs elections in their favor on a wide scale and uses their domination of the military and court systems to keep the people under control. As we saw last year, though, that doesn't always work, and there are sometimes protests... unfortunately last year that didn't lead to much change, but it shows the real beliefs of the people, and shows hope for the future. Iran is not naturally America's enemy -- its people are not Arab and are not as conservative as the Arabs naturally. Before the Revolution, Iran was America's ally. That could happen again, sometime, if the mullahs ever lose power...
Now of course this could never be done by invasion, that would unite the Iranian people against us, but if ever there is a peaceful revolution like the ones we have seen in many countries in the past few decades, perhaps there could be real change... Iran today just isn't as conservative as its government is.
Quote:Banning the burqua, which is such an overt religous symbol and in particular intrinsically linked to Muslim women is incredibly Islamophobic and sexist. It's a pro-Western attack on Islam where women are being used for political purposes. The focus should be on promoting anti-sexism and a society tolerant of different cultures which isn't happening in France.
Absolutely, utterly ridiculous, I completely disagree in every possible way with this quote. Religious symbol? As I explained above, Islam didn't invent veiled women... Christianity and Judaism both used to do similar things, to some degree or another. Islam is just the one that still does it. What do you think, that we should be absolutely culturally relative? If the Aztecs were still around, would you be defending their right to conduct mass human sacrifices or something? Some things are wrong, and sexism is one of those things!
I've heard it said before that it's appropriate that the Islamic calendar says it's the Middle Ages (it's like the 1400s or something by their calendar), because so much of their society is still Medieval... and really, it's true. I don't think we should just accept that and say "That's fine". We should, instead, do what we can to give their women opportunities, give them educations, let (or make) them actually see where they are going...
Overall, I think that things right now are moving in positive directions. In much of the Middle East the status of women is slowly improving. Western pressure, I think, helps that along.
I mean, if they were banning them just because they're an Islamic symbol and for no other reason, I'd agree with you that it's wrong. But that is NOT what is happening here. Again, look at their school religious items ban -- yes, headscarves and burquas probably set it off (because of their sexist meanings primarily), but once implemented they made it consistent, and banned crosses, yarmulkes, etc. as well.
Quote:It's not as if women who were forbidden to appear in public without the burqa will all of a sudden be fully liberated an allowed to walk down the street in regular clothes.
Yeah, so why should we try to do anything? Just give up, improving conditions is hopeless... except it isn't, and that doesn't actually reflect today's world. Europe seems conflicted about whether to resist or give in to this stuff, but some, at least, resist it...
I mean, my point is, Islam is more sexist than Christianity. That is a fact. Their women are oppressed. That they don't know it doesn't matter, you'd expect that because people only know what they have learned. That doesn't make it right... Islam is also much more conservative in other extremely important ways too, like how it it resists accepting the concept of freedom of speech (see things like the death threats to the Danish cartoonist, or the murder of the Dutch filmmaker).
I know that every culture is different, and definitely don't think that we are perfect or that they should be just like us; that isn't my goal at all. As I've said, there actually has been progress in women's and human rights in parts of the Islamic world in recent years. Many Arab countries have elected parliaments now. Many have women elected to those parliaments. Business options, educational options, and more are more than they have ever been for a great number of people. There are now schools for girls in places like Afghanistan where there have never been before, more job options for women in Algeria and many other places, elected parliaments in Kuwait and more, etc. These are all great developments. There are two stories, one of the progress being made and the other of the conservative reaction against it... we must support the side of progress in rights. Islam doesn't have to forever be the extremely reactionary religion that so much of it is today...
I mean, after all, back in the Middle Ages, Christianity was incredibly awful, rightswise. It has come a long way since then. Islam hasn't come as far, but I certainly don't think that that means it can't.
Oh, and yes, this is a slow process. I expect problems between Islam and the West to continue for a long time to come. For as long as a significant force in Islam believes that women should continue to be enslaved and dominated, and that human rights shouldn't really exist, we must oppose elements of Islamic social policy. Remember though -- this isn't stuff from the Koran or something, just like how opposing fundamentalist Mormons isn't saying anything about the contents of the Bible. It's about the rules that have grown up over time... changing such things is certainly difficult, but also certainly not impossible. There is a more liberal wing of Islam, after all.
Oh, the case of Iran... it is an interesting one. Iran today, I believe, is a case of a reactionary government holding back a much more moderate populace. The Iranian people supported conservative revolution in 1979, certainly, but that is not today's Iran. Urban Iranians chafe under the religious laws... it has been obvious for years that the Iranian government rigs elections in their favor on a wide scale and uses their domination of the military and court systems to keep the people under control. As we saw last year, though, that doesn't always work, and there are sometimes protests... unfortunately last year that didn't lead to much change, but it shows the real beliefs of the people, and shows hope for the future. Iran is not naturally America's enemy -- its people are not Arab and are not as conservative as the Arabs naturally. Before the Revolution, Iran was America's ally. That could happen again, sometime, if the mullahs ever lose power...
Now of course this could never be done by invasion, that would unite the Iranian people against us, but if ever there is a peaceful revolution like the ones we have seen in many countries in the past few decades, perhaps there could be real change... Iran today just isn't as conservative as its government is.