13th July 2010, 11:38 AM
(This post was last modified: 13th July 2010, 11:54 AM by A Black Falcon.)
The supposed concept of the burqua is that if a man sees a woman he will not be able to control himself and will assault her or something, so women must be hidden away when in public for their protection. People in countries where they are common (Saudi Arabia, for instance) really seem to believe this... but I think the deep-rooted sexism behind it should be clear.
Oh -- Islam didn't invent women wearing veils. The idea goes back a long way in the Middle East, actually. The story I have heard is that Muhammed said that the women in his family should wear veils, because they were part of the Prophet's family and above the others presumably, I guess (it had generally been noble women in the Byzantine Empire, etc. who sometimes wore veils), but then other women began wearing them too to be like the Prophet's family... or men began to put their women in veils too to be like the Prophet, who knows. Nothing in the Koran actually says that women have to wear anything like that. That's one similarity between conservative Islam and conservative Christianity, in both cases it's not the actual religious text that explains the worst of what they do, but "interpretations" and religious laws put on top of that text later on that do that. In neither case, obviously, do things HAVE to be that way...
Anyway, overall I am in favor of this ban. As long as these things are applied equally, that is not just focusing on one religion -- and France has been good with that -- I have no problem with things like this that try to stop some of the more onerous elements of backwards sexism that appear.
France already banned religious symbols in schools; headscarves were the main target, sure, but crosses, yarmulkes, etc. were banned as well as a result of it. I supported that (headscarves have similar symbolism to burquas, they just don't cover the face -- but that does not make such sexism okay!), and I support this too. Islam is backwards in its sexism, and if things can be done to reduce it, they should be.
In America laws like these would probably be impossible because our First Amendment rights would make it unconstitutional, I think, but France, like most European countries, doesn't have that. Normally that is a negative, but with all of the problems Europe has been having with conservative Muslims coming in and trying to force their women to stay in very inferior positions in their society, it's understandable why they'd do this. I mean, in America we just don't really understand what it's like in Europe with this stuff, the proportion of Muslim immigrants in France for instance is much, much higher than here, by a wide margin.
Now, of course, most Muslim women probably don't want to be freed from oppression, because people are somewhat easily brainwashed into believing things that oppose their rights if they are trained from birth that that is how things are, but that doesn't mean the French shouldn't try...
I'm not 100% comfortable with these bans, because I believe strongly in equality and the freedom of speech, but sometimes you need to do something that isn't entirely equal, like affirmative action, free health care and education for Native Americans (not that anything we could do could ever make up for what our ancestors did to them...), etc.
I do think you're right in one thing here -- the anti-Islamic wave in Europe probably is comparable to the anti-Hispanic one in the US. The difference is, all indications are that Hispanic people do Americanize over time. Within three generations Hispanics are not very different from anyone else in this country -- it's just a "problem" because of how many first generation immigrants there are.
In comparison, that just isn't really happening with the Islamic immigration to Europe... their cultures are radically sexist and anti-female and anti-human rights, and don't change enough just because they're living in free countries now. Think of that Dutch movie maker murdered because he made a film exposing some things about Islam in the Netherlands... I think there is some justification for Europe's reaction. I do NOT support all of it, though -- you may not realize it, but you are absolutely right about one thing -- some of the anti-Islamic reaction is caused by that same kind of nativist thing that is pushing our anti-Hispanic reaction. It is definitely not all justified. The European countries are far too focused on the "purity" of their peoples; France is just about the only country in Europe that actually believes that people can BECOME one of them. If you accept French culture, you are considered French, no matter where you came from, similar to how if you accept American culture, you are considered American, no matter your place of origin (the two are not the same, but it's close enough that I won't focus on differences here). In most of the rest of Europe, in contrast, no matter how hard immigrants try, they will never be accepted as equal to everyone else; you're either born part of the group or you never will be part of it (This, of course, is also exactly how Japan and South Korea see the world). I obviously much prefer the American and French systems -- it's absolutely ridiculous how the Turks in Germany are still not Germans, even though they have been there for decades, simply because they aren't German so they never can be. Same goes for the Koreans in Japan. Their limited views of who can be part of their culture are, I would say, not good. There are limits even in the American or French models, though -- they do require that people are willing to join your culture. The question France is asking right now is, are Burquas compatible with French concepts of equality? They're saying no, and because of how sexist and oppressive they are, I think I probably would agree...
The question is, really, how much leeway should you give people who do not believe in the fundamental rights and freedoms your country is founded on? "It is our culture to force women to wear burquas, it is our culture to murder women who have sex before marriage, it is our culture to not allow a free press or freedom of expression, it is our culture to not allow religious conversion, etc, etc..."
Of course I am only talking about extremist Islam here, not moderate Islam, but hopefully that is obvious (moderate Muslims living in the West would not believe all of those things I just listed above, I would expect...). All Muslims in Europe are certainly not a problem... only some are. The problem is, there are quite a few of that "some".
European anti-Islamic sentiment definitely can go too far, though. An example of European reaction against Muslims that obviously goes way too far would be, for instance, that law that passed in Switzerland banning any new mosques from being constructed in the country, out of reaction against Islamic people. There's no justification for that kind of thing. And the way that Europe is isolating and pushing away Turkey, despite how much Turkey clearly wants to get closer to Europe, is counter-productive and may be driving Turkey away, which would be very much a bad thing for all of us. America keeps pressing Europe to get closer to Turkey, but because they are Muslim Europe doesn't want to... even though Turkey is one of the most moderate of the Muslim nations. Yes, they have their conservatives, but they are also somewhat Western. Opposing extremist Islam is a good thing, obviously, and I would include things like burqua bans in that, but holding Turkey away? All that does is encourage more conservative Turks to try to get more power and reverse all the good that has been done in that country over the years, maybe overturn its headscarf ban in all government buildings, etc. America supports Turkey for a reason -- it has been a good model for something closer to what we like from Islamic countries. Hopefully it will stay that way... but with how Europe is treating them, who knows.
Anyway though, the whole Europe and Islam thing is complex and very difficult. It's hard to know what should or could be done, or what would make things better or worse... the current path is just so mixed. Somewhat positive, somewhat destructive. I really don't know where things are going. Islam and the West kind of seem like they will always be at odds, though... though given that the Middle East and Europe have been somewhat antagonistic ever since the development of civilizations in both areas, that shouldn't be too surprising. We'll see whether anything will change in that regard in the future. Perhaps, perhaps not, who knows.
Oh -- Islam didn't invent women wearing veils. The idea goes back a long way in the Middle East, actually. The story I have heard is that Muhammed said that the women in his family should wear veils, because they were part of the Prophet's family and above the others presumably, I guess (it had generally been noble women in the Byzantine Empire, etc. who sometimes wore veils), but then other women began wearing them too to be like the Prophet's family... or men began to put their women in veils too to be like the Prophet, who knows. Nothing in the Koran actually says that women have to wear anything like that. That's one similarity between conservative Islam and conservative Christianity, in both cases it's not the actual religious text that explains the worst of what they do, but "interpretations" and religious laws put on top of that text later on that do that. In neither case, obviously, do things HAVE to be that way...
Anyway, overall I am in favor of this ban. As long as these things are applied equally, that is not just focusing on one religion -- and France has been good with that -- I have no problem with things like this that try to stop some of the more onerous elements of backwards sexism that appear.
France already banned religious symbols in schools; headscarves were the main target, sure, but crosses, yarmulkes, etc. were banned as well as a result of it. I supported that (headscarves have similar symbolism to burquas, they just don't cover the face -- but that does not make such sexism okay!), and I support this too. Islam is backwards in its sexism, and if things can be done to reduce it, they should be.
In America laws like these would probably be impossible because our First Amendment rights would make it unconstitutional, I think, but France, like most European countries, doesn't have that. Normally that is a negative, but with all of the problems Europe has been having with conservative Muslims coming in and trying to force their women to stay in very inferior positions in their society, it's understandable why they'd do this. I mean, in America we just don't really understand what it's like in Europe with this stuff, the proportion of Muslim immigrants in France for instance is much, much higher than here, by a wide margin.
Now, of course, most Muslim women probably don't want to be freed from oppression, because people are somewhat easily brainwashed into believing things that oppose their rights if they are trained from birth that that is how things are, but that doesn't mean the French shouldn't try...
I'm not 100% comfortable with these bans, because I believe strongly in equality and the freedom of speech, but sometimes you need to do something that isn't entirely equal, like affirmative action, free health care and education for Native Americans (not that anything we could do could ever make up for what our ancestors did to them...), etc.
Quote:I see a declining, frail, decadent, and aging West trying to resist being outbred and replaced on its native soil. I see it as a defensive measure against cultural replacement.
NOT AT ALL UNLIKE AMERICANS AGAINST ILLEGALS WHO ARE DOING THE SAME THING IN THE STATES: REPLACING THE ESTABLISHED CULTURE AND SOCIETY WITH THEIR OWN.
I do think you're right in one thing here -- the anti-Islamic wave in Europe probably is comparable to the anti-Hispanic one in the US. The difference is, all indications are that Hispanic people do Americanize over time. Within three generations Hispanics are not very different from anyone else in this country -- it's just a "problem" because of how many first generation immigrants there are.
In comparison, that just isn't really happening with the Islamic immigration to Europe... their cultures are radically sexist and anti-female and anti-human rights, and don't change enough just because they're living in free countries now. Think of that Dutch movie maker murdered because he made a film exposing some things about Islam in the Netherlands... I think there is some justification for Europe's reaction. I do NOT support all of it, though -- you may not realize it, but you are absolutely right about one thing -- some of the anti-Islamic reaction is caused by that same kind of nativist thing that is pushing our anti-Hispanic reaction. It is definitely not all justified. The European countries are far too focused on the "purity" of their peoples; France is just about the only country in Europe that actually believes that people can BECOME one of them. If you accept French culture, you are considered French, no matter where you came from, similar to how if you accept American culture, you are considered American, no matter your place of origin (the two are not the same, but it's close enough that I won't focus on differences here). In most of the rest of Europe, in contrast, no matter how hard immigrants try, they will never be accepted as equal to everyone else; you're either born part of the group or you never will be part of it (This, of course, is also exactly how Japan and South Korea see the world). I obviously much prefer the American and French systems -- it's absolutely ridiculous how the Turks in Germany are still not Germans, even though they have been there for decades, simply because they aren't German so they never can be. Same goes for the Koreans in Japan. Their limited views of who can be part of their culture are, I would say, not good. There are limits even in the American or French models, though -- they do require that people are willing to join your culture. The question France is asking right now is, are Burquas compatible with French concepts of equality? They're saying no, and because of how sexist and oppressive they are, I think I probably would agree...
The question is, really, how much leeway should you give people who do not believe in the fundamental rights and freedoms your country is founded on? "It is our culture to force women to wear burquas, it is our culture to murder women who have sex before marriage, it is our culture to not allow a free press or freedom of expression, it is our culture to not allow religious conversion, etc, etc..."
Of course I am only talking about extremist Islam here, not moderate Islam, but hopefully that is obvious (moderate Muslims living in the West would not believe all of those things I just listed above, I would expect...). All Muslims in Europe are certainly not a problem... only some are. The problem is, there are quite a few of that "some".
European anti-Islamic sentiment definitely can go too far, though. An example of European reaction against Muslims that obviously goes way too far would be, for instance, that law that passed in Switzerland banning any new mosques from being constructed in the country, out of reaction against Islamic people. There's no justification for that kind of thing. And the way that Europe is isolating and pushing away Turkey, despite how much Turkey clearly wants to get closer to Europe, is counter-productive and may be driving Turkey away, which would be very much a bad thing for all of us. America keeps pressing Europe to get closer to Turkey, but because they are Muslim Europe doesn't want to... even though Turkey is one of the most moderate of the Muslim nations. Yes, they have their conservatives, but they are also somewhat Western. Opposing extremist Islam is a good thing, obviously, and I would include things like burqua bans in that, but holding Turkey away? All that does is encourage more conservative Turks to try to get more power and reverse all the good that has been done in that country over the years, maybe overturn its headscarf ban in all government buildings, etc. America supports Turkey for a reason -- it has been a good model for something closer to what we like from Islamic countries. Hopefully it will stay that way... but with how Europe is treating them, who knows.
Anyway though, the whole Europe and Islam thing is complex and very difficult. It's hard to know what should or could be done, or what would make things better or worse... the current path is just so mixed. Somewhat positive, somewhat destructive. I really don't know where things are going. Islam and the West kind of seem like they will always be at odds, though... though given that the Middle East and Europe have been somewhat antagonistic ever since the development of civilizations in both areas, that shouldn't be too surprising. We'll see whether anything will change in that regard in the future. Perhaps, perhaps not, who knows.