3rd May 2007, 2:11 AM
(This post was last modified: 3rd May 2007, 2:47 AM by Dark Jaguar.)
Secret of Mana? Sure that's one where all you really do is attack. That's much more of an action game though.
In any event, here's hoping I might actually get to play the games you say actually represent the sort of RPG combat system you are talking about. I can't find them in stores, or used game stores. Maybe Steam? Anyway, I didn't set out to dig on American RPGs, because in spite of what I've seen as a general lack of depth in actual combat (and my internal jury is still out on that until I've played those mid 90's mastering of the form you speak of), the rest of the stuff in the games I've played tend to be very well done (yes, Neverwinter Nights was this cliche stuff reminding me of some cheesy fantasy books I read as a kid). It's a matter of taste really.
(Incidentally, as for the trap thing, well I guess I just consider an enemy walking into a bomb when you aren't even in site as a casualty, whereas an active engagement of the enemy is what counts as a "battle proper". Xenosaga, which is a game with a lot of strategy, mainly involving the modification of turn order to suit you favorably (though the "AEGS" combat just plain sucks) has a sort of "trap" itself in the form of blowing up some electrical circuit as the enemy passes by, reducing some stat or another. That could be considered combat in a form but generally you haven't atually started attacking them yet when you are doing this so I don't really count that little pre-engagement part.)
Anyway, I do hope that one day Japan learns the art of the MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION CHOICE. I get the impression they just never even had "Choose your own adventure" books or anything to give them the idea but, well I've ranted on this before, but when a goron (not RPG but same concept) asks desperatly if you'll help their leader snap out of it, and answering "no" just loops you back through the conversation to that choice, again and again, until you say "yes". Or, in the more adventurous examples, answering "no" just results in at most a tiny mini-scenario where maybe you get a different piece of equipment (an item to duel weild weapons perhaps instead of one to use two hands to weild a single weapon) before the story forces your character to make that "yes" choice anyway and the game goes on like nothing happened. I suppose Final Fantasy 7 had a mini-scenario involving going on a date with different characters depending on tiny otherwise meaningless choices was CLOSE, but it still had no real effect on the game's story. No, a real choice is something that can actually have a major impact, like entire towns being alligned against you forcing you on a complicated quest chain where you might become a werewolf, and eventually go to the dark cave of the wolf gods, and here you can either choose to serve them, recruiting an army, slay them, restoring yourself to normal, or slay them and BECOME the wolfen singularity, each one changing drastically what you have become, now THAT is choice. Oblivion, for example, allows you to pretty much blow off it's "main story" and do whatever you want, whether it is becoming a feared and respected evil overlord, a reclusive magical hermit, or a shining hero of the people. I also can see it being expanded much further even from there. And also, much better conversation structures allow you to actually, you know, have a repor with people you develop.
Don't get me wrong, a very compelling narritive sometimes requires snatching a lot of the control away. In Japanese RPGs "non-linear" means getting to go on side quests (or not) in various orders throughout the game. It is something I still very much appreciate in those types of games though. Anyway, my point is a proper marriage of these two styles of games would really impress me.
Also, and this is just something that's been bugging me about American RPGs for some time, I really wish they would all stop just trying to copy D&D. Not ALL of them do that, but too many just say "if we want a good system, it has to be based on D&D". I'd like to see some REALLY unique system that defies that style. Quest for Glory sounds like it does that, for example. Chrono Cross did a similar thing actually, but beyond that the entire combat system was unique. It still used hit points and such, but here's what I mean. Every battle starts out with you unable, or close to unable, to even use your special abilites. Instead you have 3 strength level attacks. Weak, but with a very high probability of hitting, medium, medium chance of hitting, and strong, fairly low chance of hitting. Every succesful attack raises the chances of all 3 by a bit. Also, every succesful attack builds power for the special moves. The special moves each exist on "tiers" of power. In fact, you can decide which tier to place it on, and the spell scales in it's effectiveness accordingly. Each one has it's "default" level and notes how much of it's power has increased or decreased. That's for "normal" powers, there are also character specific abilities that are unlocked during play that are fixed. Anyway, aside from more powerful abilities needing more attacks to use, they also each have a "color". There are 6 (actually 7, but as far as most of the game goes, 6) different color "elements" (all abilities are elements, so the elements are more like the periodic table style of elements than primal earth mother elements, in terms of sheer number anyway). Every time an ability is used, aside from it's color having the obvious strength and weakness depending on character alignment and enemy resistance/weakness, also changes the "field color" of the battle. In fact, the field itself has up to 3 color allignments, storing the past 3 spells used, enemy and character alike (this is one of those games where both sides use the same battle system, though the enemy still has the Japanese tradition of weaker defense but much higher HP, and various enemies still often have abilities you never get to use, though you can learn a number of them). Very special abilities, summons, require the entire field to be alligned to it's color and a fully charged attack. As you can imagine, this takes a lot of strategy, anticipating enemy moves and making sure you get in enough physical attacks to be able to use the summon. (Great idea but unfortunatly too often the summons for all the work that went into bringing them into the world often didn't bring the power you would hope they would.) Basically here I'm giving you an idea of the sort of originality I like in a good RPG system. It's why Chrono Cross is still one of my favorite games. The only thing is, they took out one of my favorite parts of Chrono Trigger, combined attacks, but the rest of the system makes up for it and then some. Really by comparison all Chrono Trigger had unique to it WAS the combined character attacks, and was otherwise pretty standard in comparison. Anyway, the standard "flow" was usually pretty climactic when I compare it to pretty much any other RPG, in that your characters become stronger and stronger as the battle went on, on BOTH sides, instead of the standard weaker and weaker, until a random knife stab is what does the enemy in by taking that last hit point, when you used your most powerful gambit right at the start. It had all the drama of an action movie when at the very end you summoned everything you had to blast the enemy with a dragon of fire summoned from your very soul. I'm basically saying that it can be very complicated in it's own way.
If you want my honest opinion, if all games were to be released for just ONE system, I'd want it on PC (which isn't really just one system, but just GO with it). Sure there's the issue of optimising for hardware, but DirectX has been making big strides that make such optimizing far easier since that layer is what handles interacting with the hardware. Further, and this is really the big thing, it's the user customization. Everything from mods to whatever controller the user wants to use, right there on the PC. I doubt it'll ever happen, but hey I can hook up a PC to a big ol' TV if I need to and get pretty much everything I want in one box. Also, PC games have been doing for YEARS what console games are announcing as "brand new revolutionary features". XBox Live does add a lot of usability to online play, but it basically is an extension of online systems on the PC, especially Blizzard who was the online king before that. What I'd like is a standardization between various online groups, all of them catching up to Live eventually (though a lot need to catch up to Blizzard first), so that, basically, they can all communicate with each other allowing you to send invites to Live members from your Steam account, for example (and really, Steam needs to catch up to Live as well, but they aren't even at Blizzard level). Beyond that, Sony's talking about "Game 3.0" with Little Big Planet and being able to design your own levels. That's great and all, and I love the engine they have for that little platformer, but in all honesty this 3.0 thing has been done since, at LEAST, Doom .wad files. Then there's mouse and keyboard (though for the longest time, PC game controllers sucked, SUCKED, every single one, until the Sidewinder, then they started sucking again until finally people just hacked console controllers and now everything either uses bluetooth or USB to hook up so they instantly became PC compatible, officially recognized or not :D (incidentally, Nintendo does not "approve" of the unofficial drivers on the PC for the Wii controller, but honestly I don't care, I just need to make sure my Wii is OFF when I use it for a PC controller so I don't accidently control two systems at the same time). Further, if you want sims, or FPS games, or strategy (either kind), or adventure games of the point and click variety, you go with the PC, for the most part. If you want fighting games though, or weird "party" games like Mario Party, or platformers, or the console style of adventure game, you go with console. If you want an RPG, I am of the opinion that there are two VERY distinct styles with their own strengths and weaknesses, one much more often found on consoles, and the other much more often found on PCs. Make your choice!
In any event, here's hoping I might actually get to play the games you say actually represent the sort of RPG combat system you are talking about. I can't find them in stores, or used game stores. Maybe Steam? Anyway, I didn't set out to dig on American RPGs, because in spite of what I've seen as a general lack of depth in actual combat (and my internal jury is still out on that until I've played those mid 90's mastering of the form you speak of), the rest of the stuff in the games I've played tend to be very well done (yes, Neverwinter Nights was this cliche stuff reminding me of some cheesy fantasy books I read as a kid). It's a matter of taste really.
(Incidentally, as for the trap thing, well I guess I just consider an enemy walking into a bomb when you aren't even in site as a casualty, whereas an active engagement of the enemy is what counts as a "battle proper". Xenosaga, which is a game with a lot of strategy, mainly involving the modification of turn order to suit you favorably (though the "AEGS" combat just plain sucks) has a sort of "trap" itself in the form of blowing up some electrical circuit as the enemy passes by, reducing some stat or another. That could be considered combat in a form but generally you haven't atually started attacking them yet when you are doing this so I don't really count that little pre-engagement part.)
Anyway, I do hope that one day Japan learns the art of the MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION CHOICE. I get the impression they just never even had "Choose your own adventure" books or anything to give them the idea but, well I've ranted on this before, but when a goron (not RPG but same concept) asks desperatly if you'll help their leader snap out of it, and answering "no" just loops you back through the conversation to that choice, again and again, until you say "yes". Or, in the more adventurous examples, answering "no" just results in at most a tiny mini-scenario where maybe you get a different piece of equipment (an item to duel weild weapons perhaps instead of one to use two hands to weild a single weapon) before the story forces your character to make that "yes" choice anyway and the game goes on like nothing happened. I suppose Final Fantasy 7 had a mini-scenario involving going on a date with different characters depending on tiny otherwise meaningless choices was CLOSE, but it still had no real effect on the game's story. No, a real choice is something that can actually have a major impact, like entire towns being alligned against you forcing you on a complicated quest chain where you might become a werewolf, and eventually go to the dark cave of the wolf gods, and here you can either choose to serve them, recruiting an army, slay them, restoring yourself to normal, or slay them and BECOME the wolfen singularity, each one changing drastically what you have become, now THAT is choice. Oblivion, for example, allows you to pretty much blow off it's "main story" and do whatever you want, whether it is becoming a feared and respected evil overlord, a reclusive magical hermit, or a shining hero of the people. I also can see it being expanded much further even from there. And also, much better conversation structures allow you to actually, you know, have a repor with people you develop.
Don't get me wrong, a very compelling narritive sometimes requires snatching a lot of the control away. In Japanese RPGs "non-linear" means getting to go on side quests (or not) in various orders throughout the game. It is something I still very much appreciate in those types of games though. Anyway, my point is a proper marriage of these two styles of games would really impress me.
Also, and this is just something that's been bugging me about American RPGs for some time, I really wish they would all stop just trying to copy D&D. Not ALL of them do that, but too many just say "if we want a good system, it has to be based on D&D". I'd like to see some REALLY unique system that defies that style. Quest for Glory sounds like it does that, for example. Chrono Cross did a similar thing actually, but beyond that the entire combat system was unique. It still used hit points and such, but here's what I mean. Every battle starts out with you unable, or close to unable, to even use your special abilites. Instead you have 3 strength level attacks. Weak, but with a very high probability of hitting, medium, medium chance of hitting, and strong, fairly low chance of hitting. Every succesful attack raises the chances of all 3 by a bit. Also, every succesful attack builds power for the special moves. The special moves each exist on "tiers" of power. In fact, you can decide which tier to place it on, and the spell scales in it's effectiveness accordingly. Each one has it's "default" level and notes how much of it's power has increased or decreased. That's for "normal" powers, there are also character specific abilities that are unlocked during play that are fixed. Anyway, aside from more powerful abilities needing more attacks to use, they also each have a "color". There are 6 (actually 7, but as far as most of the game goes, 6) different color "elements" (all abilities are elements, so the elements are more like the periodic table style of elements than primal earth mother elements, in terms of sheer number anyway). Every time an ability is used, aside from it's color having the obvious strength and weakness depending on character alignment and enemy resistance/weakness, also changes the "field color" of the battle. In fact, the field itself has up to 3 color allignments, storing the past 3 spells used, enemy and character alike (this is one of those games where both sides use the same battle system, though the enemy still has the Japanese tradition of weaker defense but much higher HP, and various enemies still often have abilities you never get to use, though you can learn a number of them). Very special abilities, summons, require the entire field to be alligned to it's color and a fully charged attack. As you can imagine, this takes a lot of strategy, anticipating enemy moves and making sure you get in enough physical attacks to be able to use the summon. (Great idea but unfortunatly too often the summons for all the work that went into bringing them into the world often didn't bring the power you would hope they would.) Basically here I'm giving you an idea of the sort of originality I like in a good RPG system. It's why Chrono Cross is still one of my favorite games. The only thing is, they took out one of my favorite parts of Chrono Trigger, combined attacks, but the rest of the system makes up for it and then some. Really by comparison all Chrono Trigger had unique to it WAS the combined character attacks, and was otherwise pretty standard in comparison. Anyway, the standard "flow" was usually pretty climactic when I compare it to pretty much any other RPG, in that your characters become stronger and stronger as the battle went on, on BOTH sides, instead of the standard weaker and weaker, until a random knife stab is what does the enemy in by taking that last hit point, when you used your most powerful gambit right at the start. It had all the drama of an action movie when at the very end you summoned everything you had to blast the enemy with a dragon of fire summoned from your very soul. I'm basically saying that it can be very complicated in it's own way.
If you want my honest opinion, if all games were to be released for just ONE system, I'd want it on PC (which isn't really just one system, but just GO with it). Sure there's the issue of optimising for hardware, but DirectX has been making big strides that make such optimizing far easier since that layer is what handles interacting with the hardware. Further, and this is really the big thing, it's the user customization. Everything from mods to whatever controller the user wants to use, right there on the PC. I doubt it'll ever happen, but hey I can hook up a PC to a big ol' TV if I need to and get pretty much everything I want in one box. Also, PC games have been doing for YEARS what console games are announcing as "brand new revolutionary features". XBox Live does add a lot of usability to online play, but it basically is an extension of online systems on the PC, especially Blizzard who was the online king before that. What I'd like is a standardization between various online groups, all of them catching up to Live eventually (though a lot need to catch up to Blizzard first), so that, basically, they can all communicate with each other allowing you to send invites to Live members from your Steam account, for example (and really, Steam needs to catch up to Live as well, but they aren't even at Blizzard level). Beyond that, Sony's talking about "Game 3.0" with Little Big Planet and being able to design your own levels. That's great and all, and I love the engine they have for that little platformer, but in all honesty this 3.0 thing has been done since, at LEAST, Doom .wad files. Then there's mouse and keyboard (though for the longest time, PC game controllers sucked, SUCKED, every single one, until the Sidewinder, then they started sucking again until finally people just hacked console controllers and now everything either uses bluetooth or USB to hook up so they instantly became PC compatible, officially recognized or not :D (incidentally, Nintendo does not "approve" of the unofficial drivers on the PC for the Wii controller, but honestly I don't care, I just need to make sure my Wii is OFF when I use it for a PC controller so I don't accidently control two systems at the same time). Further, if you want sims, or FPS games, or strategy (either kind), or adventure games of the point and click variety, you go with the PC, for the most part. If you want fighting games though, or weird "party" games like Mario Party, or platformers, or the console style of adventure game, you go with console. If you want an RPG, I am of the opinion that there are two VERY distinct styles with their own strengths and weaknesses, one much more often found on consoles, and the other much more often found on PCs. Make your choice!
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)