12th February 2005, 10:17 PM
Quote:This makes absolutely no sense. I know you know something about the history of computers and the history of videogames. You know that computers have existed for longer than home video game consoles. And that computer games have made just as much of a jump as video games have. There is nothing in the PC market like Pong to Mario Tennis or Pitfall to Mario Sunshine??? What the heck? But in the very thing you were replying to I stated some games that are equally big jumps! Adventure to Curse of Monkey Island? Empire to Civ III? Wizardry to Baldur's Gate II? Spacewar to Battlecruiser???
If you actually believe what I thought you said there you are being incredibly ignorant and you are smart enough to know that you should know better.
Spacewar was not a home computer game!
*sigh*
So dumb, so dumb...
Quote:Haven't played Ratchet & Clank, know almost nothing about Ratchet & Clank, and wasn't directly referring to Ratchet & Clank, so I don't know what your problem is... I was just pointing out that many of those games are not ones I would consider to create new subgenres -- I would not say Sonic or Mario Bros. 3 created new subgenres, as I said (I'm not even sure about Super Mario Bros., actually... it was clearly revolutionary, but was it an actually new subgenre? I don't know, it's pretty similar in basic idea to Pitfall...). I obviously have a higher standard for what I'd call a subgenre than you do... Pitfall and Mario 64 definitely did create new subgenres. But anything beyond that? Not major categories, I'd think. Just new takes on what already exists. I consider that a different thing from a totally new game idea... every time a game adds some new idea into a game that mostly follows what has come before I would not say that a new subgenre has been created.
But where do Ratchet & Clank or Sly Cooper fit in? I won't say for sure because I've never played them.
Uh, those were examples of innovation within genres, ABF. Not new subgenres. That was another example.
Quote:Yes, Theif is sufficiently different from a normal FPS that it is a new subgenre of the field. It plays very little like the rest of the games in the genre. And I haven't played any PS2 platformers, but based on the many I have played you just don't see that very often in platforming games... they mostly seem to be at their core based either on Mario for NES or Mario for N64... yes, with changes that make them somewhat different, but most platformers aren't too original. (Are the ones you mention more original? Quite possible... but without playing them I don't know how much. Like Theif compared to a normal FPS? That's a pretty big difference, if true...)
You know Brian, the most annoying part about arguing with you is that you almost never know anything about the subject you are so passionately arguing. It makes you look like the biggest idiot in the world. And you wonder why I have no patience for you??
Sly Cooper is a sltealth platformer that's more unlike Mario 64 than Thief is unlike Doom. That is a fact. If you know don't know jack shit about this then you need to shut up before you make yourself look like an even bigger dumbass. If that is possible.
Quote:Anyway, there is one thing to say. It is not an effective counter-arguement to say "one game on my list is truly unique" when I questioned all but two. Fine, maybe one or two more are too, but is only talking about one of them really a good way to refute the point?
Now you're more confused than ever. I mentioned platformers twice: once in terms of innovation and again in terms of sub genres. And I don't need to address each and every game when I already gave accurate descriptions of each one. If you haven't played them then that's not my problem and arguing this further proves your lack of intelligence.
Quote:I was thinking of game publishers in general, and there are many examples of games brought over here from Japan that did not succeed... though yeah, there probably are enough success stories to make their extreme cautiousness in so many cases very strange.
What examples can you think of?
Quote:I don't know how you get those numbers, but they don't have much to do with reality. How does one buy 5-10 FPSes and 2-4 RTSes and end up with a ratio where the overall ratio is about 8 RTSes bought for every 10 FPSes bought? Yeah, you don't. You buy 4-8 RTS titles, not 2-4. I'm not quite sure why you said so few RTSes... because of the statements that there are fewer great RTSes? But when the sales of the genre are almost as high that is proof that hardcore gamers are buying the genre in close to the same volume... so the average hardcore gamer could not have four times more FPSes than RTSes if the overall average is three RTSes for every four FPSes. It's simply impossible. And anyway, there aren't that many fewer great AAA RTS titles than there are great AAA FPSes... there are just probably more lower-quality FPS titles.
*sigh*
If you're seeing the same RTSs on the charts month after month, it's pretty obvious that people aren't buying the same games over and over again, right? Yet you see a new FPS or three near the top of the charts each month, usually higher than the same RTS that's been there for ages. If you take that into consideration along with the fact that the FPSs are almost always selling better than the RTSs, it's obvious that people are buying a greater volume of FPSs each year than RTSs.
But I'm done with this. It's an extreme waste of my time to argue this with you.
Quote:And I mostly talked about keyboard and mouse games, you know. I listed six genres which I then discussed in more depth. Five of those are keyboard/mouse genres. One requires peripherals. And yet your entire reply is about that last genre and you completely ignore 80% at least of what I said. How nice. Really makes for an effective reply to what I said.
Good grief, this paragraph of yours is so full of logical errors and a very obvious lack of understanding about a thing that I said that I'm going to have to tackle this idiotic point by idiotic point.
First of all, what the fuck does this first quote have anything to do with what I said? Did you just print out my post, cut it up into a hundred pieces, tape it all together in random order and then read it??
Quote:About that subject, though... I'd say that most hardcore PC gamers have at least a basic joystick.
Yeah right, out of everyone at Tendo City who said that they would like to play my game, only you and Derek have gamepads. That's it! And this is a pretty hardcore gaming bunch!
Quote:Nice, more expensive joysticks (that are better for complex flight sims) are of course much more rare. A gamepad? Rarer than basic joysticks, but many probably do. Wheels? Much less common. Other add-ons? PC gamers are no more reluctant to buy them than console gamers are, OB1. Add-ons always have acceptance problems on both platforms. Complaining about that as if PC gamers are worse is silly. Your problem seems to be that you want to make console-style games and they are less popular on the PC than PC-style games are... so you get bitter about the whole PC industry for some reason. It's not right. I will never agree that PC games and the PC industry are, as you say, far less original and 'stuck with old ideas' than console games are. Sure, PC games don't generate new genres and stuff as often. But they add on stuff to existing genres all the time and that results in a great variety of titles! I know, your arguement is (or should be; I'll ignore the part earlier here where you seem to say something else) that consoles are equal on this matter. I'd like to think PCs are ahead. They're certainly not behind, anyway. Originality shows different ways in different games. Games don't necessarially have to be a totally unique gameplay experience and create new genres or subgenres to be original and innovative in some respects... and most of the time that's all that is really needed. (Of course, sometimes totally unique games are great, and it's nice that some people make them. But the point is that to be admirably unique games don't necessarially have to be a gameplay idea as different from everything else as, say, Wario Ware.
Wow, what a completely again-not-listening-to-me post!
Of COURSE add-on peripherals don't sell better on consoles! I never suggested anything even close to that! I said--and you better listen this time-- that gamers are not willing to buy new peripherals to enjoy different kinds of games, so developers have to design games around the STANDARD control set-up for each respective platform. With PCs that is the KEYBOARD AND MOUSE and with modern consoles that is the DUAL-ANALOG GAMEPAD. That brings me back to my original point that the kb&m is a far less versatile control system than the modern console controller, which severely limits what a PC developer can realistically accomplish.
Quote:Anyway, controls... Rayman works fine on keyboard? I don't know, I have all three of the main Rayman games for PC and I'd never want to play them on keyboard... even for Rayman, using a gamepad makes a dramatic difference. You are right that keyboard/mouse only really works for simple action/platformer games. Side-scrolling or top-down titles that use only two or three buttons are definitely playable on keyboard... (I know, you disagree, but they are. Is control a bit worse? Probably, yes. But not so much that playing the game is impossible, especially if the game was originally designed for keyboards... (your arguement here, if I recall, was that that requires the designers to make the game a bit slower paced and/or easier. Perhaps. But if the games can still be great, and great fun, and challenging, that doesn't matter all that much...)) but 3d platformers? It's not easy. Only the simplest ones work and those are not nearly as good. The difference between keyboard and gamepad is a lot bigger for 3d titles than it was for 2d games... which is perhaps part of why while there were a lot of 2d platformers on the PC (especially shareware), there are a lot fewer 3d ones... while a bunch of people have gamepads, it's not as many as have keyboards. Tie that to how successful modern consoles are and the result is the fading of the once-strong platformer genre on the PC.
Rayman relative to something like Mario Sunshine, that is. It's still crap with a keyboard, but not impossible like Mario Sunshine would be.
Quote:I'm saying that PCs have innovation, but in somewhat different ways... but I think I've explained that in depth several times now in this thread.
There's tons of innovation, for certain, but not equal to the kind of innovation possible on consoles.