12th February 2005, 3:34 PM
Quote:First, you aren't talking about new subgenres with that list. You're talking about games which are not just purely rehashes of what we've seen before... but I wouldn't say that all of those are in different subgenres. Sonic did not create a new subgenre of platformers, for instance. It had innovations, but didn't found a whole new category... same with SMB 3 -- lots of originality and innovations, but not a new subgenre. Anyway, I said all three, but I primarially think of strategy games as the broadest genre around. Sims might not match that... RPGs? Perhaps, but less than strategy games.The RPG shooter platformer isn't a new subgenre?? How many other games of that type are out there?
Quote:Counter? Making a list of every game that added any kind of innovation into its genre (even if you don't act stupid and then say that every such game created a new subgenre) is pointless. I certainly could make a list that long with strategy games, though, and likely also RPGs, if the standard is as low as yours appears to be... but is it really worth the time?None of this is worth the time.
Quote:That doesn't matter that much though... or at least, sales matter equally. And in sales RTSes are a very close second. The difference is just that the big RTSes sell for longer, and their expansions seem to stay on the lists longer as well. But saying that because the FPS genre has more titles it is vastly more important than the RTS genre, which is pretty close in sales, is just silly! And that becomes even more absurd if you include the rest of the strategy genre (lower sales, but many varieties).Going by the sales you can deduce that the average "hardcore" PC Gamer buys around 5-10 FPSs a year and 2-4 RTSs a year. That certainly matters.
Quote: Missing many genres for the PC side, misleading, and wrong.I knew you were going to say that, and I was hoping that would happen since it would go further to prove my point about you never fully listening to what I say.
First, genres common on PC (that are better with keyboard/mouse as done on PC). Strategy, building/management simulations, RPGs, adventure games (both graphic adventures and interactive fiction, which are quite alive in freeware circles), wargames (one of the oldest PC genres and still around in online distribution), FPSes... there is one common genre that is different, however -- car, airplane, tank, boat, etc... simulations. These are best with either joysticks (not gamepads!) or wheels. That requirement, along with their typically high system requirements and steep difficulty curves to get into demanding, complex games, limits their commercial success... but it's a very important group of genres (racing games, mech/space combat sims, and realistic flight/tank sims probably are not in the same genre) in the history of PC gaming.
That brings up the issue of peripherals. Both PCs and consoles have them. As it relates consoles come up with lots of new ones while PCs generally just have the same ones as ever (joysticks, gamepads, steering wheels)... but PCs have built in a lot of things add-ons do, or have no good way of doing such things (like connectivity to use a small screen as a controller)... and there's already a mouse so no need for a keypad or touchscreen or something... and the fact that PC gaming companies are not desperately trying to invent new ways of playing games like Nintendo is. :)
Anyway... if you want games unplayable on consoles, you should add those flight/mech/etc. sims to the list. The realistic ones, anyway... okay, one exception: Steel Battalion. But other than that nothing can compare. Such games NEED lots of buttons. Gamepads only have enough for more action-oriented games, not truly in-depth sims. And gamepad joysticks are pitiful and small and not nearly adaquate for a good flight sim... but even if there was a joystick on consoles, you wouldn't have the keyboard (or throttle controller, for serious flight control systems) to go with it for the dozens of other necessary keys.
The other genres? Management/building sims technically CAN be done on consoles, but the results are a pale imitation. It simply does not work as well. Strategy games and these sims have similar controls so it's not surprising that they translate to consoles similarly poorly... like Civilization, The Sims will never be a great console game. Strategy games designed just for consoles? Sure, they can be fun, like Shining Force or Fire Emblem. But even those games would be better with mouse. Just like how a platformer is playable, but worse, with a keyboard, a strategy game is playable, but worse, with a gamepad. PC-style RPGs and management sims work exactly the same way.
With some genres, it depends on how your game is designed. Adventure games can go either way... from a 'this would be impossible on consoles' text-based, or text-input-with-graphics (and cursor movement) game all the way to a 'this would be very clumsy on keyboard' title like Grim Fandango, that genre works well both ways as long as the game was designed from the ground up for that kind of input.
As for genres better on consoles, most are made to play well on the PC simply by making them work best with gamepads -- see arcadish racing games, action games, action flight sims, platformers, etc. And once you spend a small sum on a decent gamepad it's almost as good as playing a similar game on a console. This flexibility is a great strength of PCs.
However, even without that there are many types of games you can do with a keyboard and mouse. Fewer than you can do well on consoles? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It's not a clearcut issue as you make it seem... there are a bunch of genres that are great on PC and so-so to bad on consoles and a bunch of genres great on consoles and so-so to bad on PCs and I am very far from convinced that either one of those facts is significantly stronger than the other.
I said KEYBOARD AND MOUSE. Games that work well on KEYBOARD AND MOUSE. Joysticks, wheels, gamepad, are all peripherals! My point was that it's nearly impossible for a developer to come up with a new or different type of game for the PC because gamers don't want to have to buy a new peripheral, and most PC gamers do not have good peripherals unless they're really into a certain genre (like flight sims or racing games). So while it is certainly possible for someone to create a nice 3d platformer for the PC, they have to sacrafice a lot in order for it to work relatively well with a kb&m. Or sacrifice nothing and make the kb&m controls suck really hard (like BG&E). Some 3d platformers work better with the kb&m, like the 3d Rayman games which feature simple platforming and a camera that works on its own, but imagine if someone were to port Mario Sunshine to the PC, a game whose camera requires constant attention and features very difficult platforming. It would be possible to do with a good analog gamepad, but virtually impossible with a kb&m, which would cut down the potential audience by a significant percentage. That is the problem that I am talking about.
Quote:If the Japanese played PC games we well might see that. As it is they don't, so most PC games are American. And American designers do much more with putting their innovation into games in existing genres or concepts than they do with going off with random weird ideas... not to mention the fact that PC games sell worse, and the market has far more "average Americans who otherwise don't play games", and thus more games aimed at casual gamers sell... and fewer niche titles aimed at fans of playing weird games.But you just said that there is as much innovation in the PC world as the console world. Why are you using excuses then? You just proved my point, yet you're trying to make it sound like you're supporting your argument.
Let me get this straight: You say that there is easily as much if not more innovation in PC gaming as console gaming.... yet there isn't as much innovation in PC gaming as console gaming because a) there aren't any Japanese PC devs, and b) the PC gaming market isn't as strong as the console market so devs have to make games that are "safe".
Pick one argument and stick to it!
Quote:They (both PC and console publishers) would say that you paint a deceptive picture. For every such success several games fail. This makes them justafiably cautious. Does this annoy gamers? Yes, of course! But they don't care about that, or about releasing the best quality games, they care about sales and profits... and too often they are too cautious.Really, well then why am I having such a difficult time remembering any risky titles that Nintendo brought over here that sold poorly? All I can think of are the examples I mentioned. If you can think of anything else, please let me know!
Quote:Your second point is absolutely correct. They talk about innovation and then often we don't get some of their most innovative titles... and it's not like we get extra titles instead! Nope, we just get left out. And it's incredibly stupid... sometimes for no apparent reason either -- tell me even one reason why Kurukuru Kururin (two GBA games and a GC game, none made it here) wouldn't sell in the US! Magical Vacation? Aren't RPGs popular? Same with EarthBound... that big, fervent community is irrelevant? Or Giftpia... and I'm not holding out much hope for the upcoming Homeworld (totally different game from the PC 3d space-based RTS... :) (which was an innovative game in its time, by the way))...It shows that Nintendo does not have a very consistent game plan and are making up shit as they go along. It's very scary.
Quote:As I've said so many times before, I just disagree with that whole premise. Simplicity is fine for some games, but complexity for the sake of making a game more detailed, immersive, and, well, complex is NOT a bad thing! I guess it's just a philisophical difference between PC and console gamers, but it's my opinion as well as the opinion of most hardcore PC gamers. And it doesn't lead to creative destruction and needless depth... yes, lots of PC games are very complex, especially in genres like wargaming and military vehicular simulations. And I do not play some of those games because I'm not used to them and they're too complex to make me want to learn. But do I think that they should all dumb down to make me happy? Of course I don't! I admire them, as long as they're well done, for being complex! That should be a goal of some games and console games just don't try for serious gameplay depth nearly as often as PC games do. You call this a good thing, I call it sometimes a problem... I guess it's a matter of opinion (though of course I think I'm more right. :)).I'm obviously not going to change your mind so there is no point in further debating this. Think what you want!
Of course, complexity that is implemented poorly, or with flaws, like the controls in Mario 64 DS, isn't a good thing. But equally complex controls in a game where such controls really add to the game? Great idea! That's what I mean by complexity can definitely be good... okay, so we have different ideas of what is good here, but all that really matters for each person is their own personal opinion on it, so that shouldn't matter on the greater issue.
Quote:Yeah, as I said consoles are very close. I'd just give PCs the edge (to those I could say 'Empire to Civilization III, Dune II to Warcraft III, Wizardry to Baldur's Gate II, Adventure to Curse of Monkey Island'...). But an arguement the other way could be made, yes.It's not "close", it's easily far, far ahead. There is no great leap in PC gaming like Pitfall to Super Mario Sunshine. Pong to Mario Power Tennis. You can argue that consoles have time on their side and you'd be right, but we're not arguing difference relative to years. If you are then you can see things becoming more even. But if you look at the earliest console games and the newest ones, there is simply no comparison whatsoever.
Quote:That list is kind of strange... most of those are not games I woud say created subgenres. Definitely not. It is a list of games that had innovative elements, certainly. I'm sure that if I thought about it I could do that for strategy games... though I'd have to split it up because the strategy genre is really several genres tied together... or for management/building sims (SimCity, Roller Coaster Tycoon, etc)... RPGs? Probably. I see your point... that you are saying that console genres are just as broad. It probably is true that on both platforms most games copy what has come before while possibly adding a few new elements while a few games really change a lot. And that as this continues genres get broader. But still... I will hold to my position that the PC strategy genre is the broadest on any platform. Sure, there might be more titles released in a genre like console platformers, but most of those have absolutely no innovations (especially the 2d ones)... PC strategy games are also numerous and probably have more average change between titles, if just because of how they are more complex games so there are more details to change. 'Any two console genres' is probably an exaggeration, but I would say that the PC strategy genre is the deepest and broadest genre on any platform.That is because you are a hypocrite who has double-standards. If you think that the Ratchet and Clank series, which is a platformer/shooter/RPG hybrid, is only a standard platformer with "minor innovations" then you are the poorest judge of this kind of thing and have no right to even begin to debate this subject.
R&C is so different from the standard platformer that it's almost in a completely separate genre. Though I'm sure you've never played the game (or most of the other ones I listed) and have no idea what you're talking about, but when has not knowing the facts stopped ABF before?
Quote:Deus Ex was somewhat innovative for its genre. For first-person innovation, though, I'd rather look at Looking Glass than Ion Storm (which, of course, is now dead, as of a few days ago, but had a lot of Looking Glass survivors in the company, including Warren Spector I believe...) -- Theif, System Shock, Ultima Underworld... Looking Glass's death was very sad. Ion Storm's was as well, but they never quite reached LG's level so it wasn't quite as bad.Ok, well let's look at those games then. Thief is a shooter with sleath elements. That makes it a stealth shooter, no? That's what we call a sub genre. Sly Cooper is to the platformer what Thief is to the FPS, except that Sly is even further removed from the conventions of the platformer than Thief is to the FPS.
Quote:Remember that people who own consoles want to play games while plenty of PC game buyers are people who have PCs who happen to buy a game every once in a long while. And that the PC gaming market is smaller to begin with. This means that weird, unique titles have a much smaller market on the PC than they do on consoles, and more titles that are designed for the mass market (beyond just regular game buyers) will show up on the PC sales lists. If you looked only at hardcore gamer sales (if that was possible) I'm sure the list would look quite different.Again you are using excuses that only prove my point. Of course there are reasons for that. There are reasons for everything. I'm just stating the fact.