3rd May 2006, 10:47 AM
(This post was last modified: 3rd May 2006, 11:40 AM by A Black Falcon.)
DMiller Wrote:Lazy, just because it is easy for an English-speaking person to learn Spanish doesn't mean it's easy for a Spanish-speaking person to learn English. Wikipedia explains my point. The key sentence is "Although in terms of grammar, English is not particularly difficult to learn, there are several features of English which are relatively complex and therefore create difficulties for the majority of learners."
That's mostly slang and 'American English' that create complexities, but i'm talking about just the ability to read, write and speak english; The complexities can be completely avoided and is only present in people who have lived in the country for years. But the base language to the point of being able to communicate takes weeks at the most if you're living in an environment that uses the language you are trying to learn.
Quote:I never said we shouldn't do anything about the problem. Obviously we need to do something because it is a huge problem, but the solution isn't to deport millions of people. This isn't feasible either economically or practically.
you'll have to explain this, you think that there are no Americans who will be leaf blowers and house painters, landscapers, roofers etc? Those jobs will be filled the next day and they will paid full wages, sign a W2, pay taxes, get benefits, have lunch breaks, etc. Unlike how the illegals were treated.
Quote:My solution is to give the illegal immigrants a chance to gain their citizenship through the normal channels. If they refuse to do so then we give them the boot.
that's exactly what i said :D All illegal immigrants have that choice but they WONT DO IT.
Quote:what I blame them for is hiring cheap labor when it breaks the law, for example paying below minimum wage to hire illegal aliens. /DJ
Actually, one of my professors was talking about this with me today, and he said that the best way to immediately stop illegal immigration, nearly 100%, is to pass a law that would make it illegal for anyone (business, etc) in this country to hire illegal immigrants, and set up an enforcement agency with inspectors. The punishment for hiring illegals would be a 1% dock on their yearly profits (or something similar). He then said that this is impossible because the corporations and agribusinesses that rely on cheap labor are also huge campaign contributors and as a result nothing of the sort would ever pass.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but he's probably right... though I do think that for it to work it'd have to be tied to some kind of aid to Central American nations to try to improve conditions there to make people less likely to want to leave (like, as I said, Western Europe did/is doing in Central/Eastern Europe) and increases in the American minimum wage -- substantial ones (to at least $7 or $8 certainly, and that'd just be a partial move to catch up on some of the value it's lost over the years as it hasn't kept up with inflation -- to make a real impact, it'd need to go higher than that.) It's completely ridiculous that our minimum wage is so low, and that forces Americans to need to buy cheap stuff, which requires cheap labor... and if you increase labor costs and make things better for those horribly exploited people (illegal immigrants working here), then you'd better improve things for Americans too...
But that won't happen either. The Republicans are the party of the top 1% or so, and that'd be very, very bad for them. (I know that on immigration the Democrats have far from a clean record either, but on the minimum wage it's much more clear...) /ABF
here's the situation: Businesses want to make money and spend as less money as possible, illegals want any job they can get, which is almost 100% of the time a slave labor position for rediculous pay. If they can hire someone for less, they'll do it. There is an orginization that inspects the business for the hiring of illegals, it's called the INS (who fines the companies who employ illegals). here's the problem: the businesses can fake all kinds of paper trails so that they can hold on to their illegals and give the INS the run around. The workers want to keep their slave-labor jobs because they cant get anything else especiially anything that might better themselves or give them a real career, forcing them to stay in slums and be used by corporations, the businesses want to keep their cheap laborers, the INS has to show proper documentation and valid proof - Both the businesses and ilegals are forging documentation and proof of citizenship. the end result: immigrants are treated as slave labor, businesses are forged in to labor camps, and nothing can be done.
We cant stop what happens outside the US, when nike opens a new factory in china we all know it's slave labor, people getting paid 50 cents a day, child-labor etc. We know that coffee and orange juice comes from slave labor. So if the illegals were forced out of the country, some of these business might go under because that's what they prfoited the most from (this goes with Miller's response), but these corporations NEED to be shutdown and forced to create a legal business model instead of growing fat on the backs of illegal immigrants.
the illegals suffer, the businesses profit. the only solution is to litteraly force people in to becoming legal. if they're removed from the country - they can get back in within a month or two legally. yes it sucks, they may lose their apartment, be taken from their families, etc. But that is their *own fault* and it can be avoided by taking the steps to become legal NOW. and when they return, they can get REAL jobs have careers, move out of the slums and create a real life. doesn't anyone understand that what is happening now is one step away from slavery? of course there are exceptions to every rule, there are illegals who did quite well for themselves; artists, computer engineers, mechanics, construction management but these people eventually became legal so their self-owned businesses and careers could, yunno, make money and not be shutdown and I gaurantee you every one of those handful of success stories were of illegals who could speak english. (and i'm just talking about mexicans, but also irish, italians, german, hell everyone going back to 200 years ago).
fences just dont work, I mean it's just as rediculous as anything else that's been tried, but they litteraly do not work. We need a new plan and a better government to handle that plan, the only way to solve the issue is to wipe the slate and start over the way it should have been done an era ago so that someday we can see a USA/Mexico border without ASSAULT RIFLES and TANKS. it's like fucking berlin all over again. Remove the walls and formulate a better government and plan that wont paint itself in to a corner again, atleast on this issue anyway.