Revolution: "It's like a souped up Xbox"

[Paco]

You can get any game to run on any system. You can get PDZ to run on an SNES, it would boot the rom but it wouldn't even be able to display the title screen and probably crash or run at 1 frame an hour.

Then it can't really run the game can it? I mean, you couldn't play it in that state (or at least you wouldn't want to). I'll say it again, the Xbox or GC could not run Kameo as it is right now, that is, the game would not be in a playable state if the GC or Xbox were trying to display everything the 360 can and does. This is why I think that there would be some degree of downgrade, even if miniscule, if Kameo were going from 360 to Revolution.

But if the systems you're transfering to have atleast a similar architecture, a bus of equal size or buffers, etc the game will run fine with only minor tweaks needed. When Rare left Nintendo the first on their list of projects was get to know the XBox hardware, so they ported Starfox Adventures to Xbox. After some minor tweaks, the game ran fine. They did the same for PDZ and Kameo and it was able to run fine. Then MS said scrap the XBox plans, we're moving to 360. So Rare, again, ported their games to a new hardware type and with a few tweaks it ran fine. They then based the builds they have of the games (in their near complete stage) and starting adding on with 1080i textures and display which quickly ate up all the system resources even though we're talking about converted GC games. So if you were to take Kameo and slap it a Revolution it would NOT run fine UNTIL they did some tweaks. Swap out the textures files for the same textures at normal res and tell the game how and why it should communicate with the new processors and whoosh, Kameo on Revolution.

You need to keep in mind that Kameo was basically at the 60% mark on GC, it reached around 90% completion on XBox and was finished up during 360 development. That means 90% of the game was based on XBox/GC hardware and would be extremely easy to port to Revolution as long as you swap out those texture files. Animations, models, levels, sound files, etc etc would all be the same. You may find frame rate hiccups but those are easily curbed.

It's extremely confusing to look at something with much higher numbers and be told that the benefits are only for resolutions. Believe me I know, ever price an editing station versus an HD editing station? You can have a workstation that's ungodly in the amount of power and storage it has yet it's just barely above what a normal editing station can do because everything in that station is going to handeling the HD content smoothly which means multiple core CPU's (or networked CPU's, I saw one using over 20) and massive amounts of RAM *JUST* to edit HD video.

So now that I explained that, to the quote tags.

That's fine and all but the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. You can sit here all day and break it down brick by brick but I won't come to a conclusion until I can compare second and third generation games from the respective consoles.

I was, but not that it looks as good. That's why I mentioned that the 'sea of orcs' was also in the GC version (you were talking about how the 360 can do 'better animations and better draw distance which is not true). It was a little trick they wanted to show off even back in the GC dev days. As I said, the GC version, when compared to the 360 version, is the same game with a different texture pallette and less glitz and props and overall lower polys (and of course normal resolutions) but the game is still comparable.

...and the game could not run on a GC as it does on the 360. I don't think I said the the 360 can do better animations, I was suggesting that Kameo benefits from better animation and draw distance due to the extra power. I remember seeing the haze and fog draw distance on the GC and Xbox version, and I remember Rare saying that they were struggling to get around 30 character models on screen at once with the Xbox. Kameo has its roots in this generation, but it looks next gen because Rare was able to get more from the 360. I'm not going to move from this standpoint no matter how hard you push me.

How am I in left field? You said that "there are no GC games that look better than XBox games, they look equal". Ninja Gaiden does not look anywhere near as good as RE4, you cant possibly think that. You say that no GC game looks better and I say that the Prime series, Resident Evil remake, zero and 4, WW and TP look better than anything available on the XBox. Prove me wrong.

I've played all those games you just mentioned. I think Ninja Gaiden is the best looking and most techinically impressive game on the Xbox (Conker would take it but there are frame rate issues). I think RE4 is the best looking and most technically impressive GC game. I'm not going to say one is better than the other because I don't believe that.

I don't have to prove anything, eye of the beholder and such.

If you want to start talking about artistic value then we would need to include the Playstation 2 library that, imo, takes down both GC and Xbox. But we're not going to do that because we don't need to.

I explained most of this already so you have an idea of what HD content does to hardware, but you are completely wrong that it takes a stronger system to achieve particular effects. Real time lighting is something you can do on N64 it doesn't 'get better', how it interacts with shadows or reflects off of texture maps has nothing to do with the power of the system and everything to do with the time the developer is willing to take on the game. You mentioned HD textures and richer textures like they're two different things as well. The fact is that every piece of hardware that has ever been has something special about it. SNES could do hardware scaling and rotation, Genny could not. The N64 could display fully anti-aliased graphics in high resolution, the Saturn/PSX/PS2 could not. These are not things that require more power but difference in design. It's that difference that makes the hardware unique and sets it apart from competition. But dont think for a second that there weren't any Genny games that had scaling and rotation or Saturn and PS2 games with anti-aliased textures. Effects are something that simply make the hardware have a visual difference. For XBox 360 the 3 main ones that come to mind are HD (nur), really awesome smoke effects and really awesome bluring effects. PS3 may go a route that says our system will have really awesome fire and explosions or be built with the idea of awesome wind dynamics, the companies choose what effects to pump up based on what they think the consumer is going to go for. It has nothing, not a single thing, to do with being a more powerful system or not.

No, not to achieve; to utilize in a playable game. And don't go down the "well, you could play a game at one frame rate per hour that occasionally crashes", just don't, it's pathetic even if technically correct. I'm talking about a game that you or I would deem acceptable as playable games.

Then wouldn't it make sense that perhaps Rare did something with Kameo that Xbox 360 excels at where the other consoles would not do so well if at all? (I know how ridiculous that sounds for a game that was basically completed on this generation of consoles and is a launch game for the next generation, but just go with it.) Perhaps the Revolution could not handle the hundreds of dragons flying around Thorn's castle, or the crazy particle effects. What I'm getting at is even if those are slight cosmetic changes then it is not the same game. That's superficial but true none the less.

...The 3 games you mentioned were developed on the XBox, yes, they can be played on an XBox if you convert the texture files and tweak the games - certain effects may be disabled, there may be a need to cut down the number of polys on screen in certain locations, but the game's would look so similar that you would need to do side by side comparison shots to spot the different versions.

Do you remember the Rubber Ducky demo from the PS2 demonstration? A single rubber ducky floating in a sink with some impressive water effects, meant to demonstrate what the PS2 was capable of. Fast forward to today and we had a similar demonstration, except the power of the PS3 allowed hundreds of rubber ducks. The demos are basically the same, except the PS3 can do so much more.

Why is it so far off base to assume that because the PS3 has more power that the developers can and most likely will achieve more than on 360 or Revolution? Why is it hard to believe that because 360 is technically more capable that developers can and will achieve more than on Revolution?

I am a full grown man (wearing a Zelda shirt) and my Nintendo consoles are in the living room (but the 64 is in the bedroom so wife and I can play DKR inbetween our rabid sex acts) But I was not trying to 'hurt' you, I was making a simple point - what are you defending? You're certainly not defending a game's studio or particular game series, you're just telling people they should like what you like, a large corporate structure that funded the development of a hardware console to attract third party development. I have about 25 years of history, characters, game series, libraries, consoles, directors, producers, writers, composers, artists etc etc from one company that i'm defending against people like you whenever your type pops up to preach the benefits of your opinions. You have nothing to defend except your own pride in the hopes that people will like what you like and agree with your opinions which is definitely not going to happen when you construct such sentences that exclaim your ignorance of how video games are made and is definitely not going to happen on a Nintendo message board. All Nintendo fans have had to deal with your type, a few decades ago you were telling me how much better Sega is, then you told me that I need a 3DO or Neo Geo and ditch that Nintendo. Then you told me how absolutely fantastic the PSX is and how lame the N64 is and now you've attached yourself to the newest latest and greatest contender in the video gaming arena which had mild success in Europe, pretty good success in America and is totally lost on the Japanese, enter round 2 with second gen hardware and now it's even more important for you to spread the word and get people interested in the newest machine that (aside from Rare's games) holds absolutely no interest for me. When Microsoft decides to get out of the home console market you will invisibly absorb a new product from a new console manufacturer and you will make sure it's not affiliated with Nintendo because it might compromise your stance on gaming that people should like what you do. I could have my ears surgically altered to resemble Hyrulian features with a Virtual Boy strapped to my face with duct tape while blowing the entire Jontoh Pokemon League and I still would not be as sad as you.

I'm not defending Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo. I have no vested interest in them. I haven't told you to buy an Xbox 360 and I haven't even claimed it as a better console or such nonsense (other than tech specs). I don't even have one yet and it's likely to stay that way until Halo 3 comes out, whenever that is. I'm simply defending the numbers, and on paper the Revolution is the lesser of the two consoles from a technical perspective just as Xbox 360 is lesser than the Playstation 3.

You don't have to defend Nintendo from me, I love them. I've been playing Nintendo consoles since my mom would let me and I've owned every Nintendo console and handheld (save for the DS, soon though) and I've loved every minute of it. Perhaps it would even interest you to know that I'm already putting money aside for a Revolution. Is that of any significance? Yes, considering I'm damn near broke all the time from rent and tuition. I'm scraping up every spare dollar I find so that I get Nintendo's new console when it drops, and so I can hop online and download some old favorites and have them all in one place. I'm almost going on faith alone that the Revolution is the console I want to buy at launch, not knowing what games will be released day one or what it even feels like to play it. I'm taking it for granted that I will enjoy it more than a 360 or PS3 due to my time with Nintendo consoles in the past.

I didn't own a Sega console; I wanted one but could not afford to have two consoles. Want to know which one I ended up sinking my hard earned allowance money into? Do I really need to tell you? Do I need to tell you that I ended up buying over 20 games for my SNES? I didn't even own a Playstation when it came out, I still don't own one to this very day (unless you want to count PS2). I bought a Saturn for one game alone, NiGHTS into Dreams, because it looked really good. I did it to hold me over until the 64 came out which I bought and now have most of every major Nitnendo release there was for it. Do I need to tell you that I didn't plan on buying a Playstation 2 or Xbox, ever? I had pre-paid a Gamecube and couldn't wait to get it. What happened is that Rare delayed Starfox Adventures and I found out there was no Mario game at launch. I got pissed off and put all my money to an Xbox. It was an impulse decision because I was mad at Nintendo. I felt horrible after I did it, and even worse when I came home one day to find a hefty box on my porch (Xbox). Looking back on my impulsive decision to buy an Xbox it turned out to be a good thing. It's taken me from a point of view that Nintendo is the best option when it comes to video games. It's one of three options, that are all good depending on your taste in video games. I ended up buying a GC the day Starfox Adventures released. I now have the PS2, GC, Xbox, and DC. I don't prefer one over the other. I hate the idea that back in the day I was so loyal as to snub Sega and Sony, to degrade anyone who didn't outright favor Nintendo as some sort of second rate gamer, and act like a jerk as you are right now. You're the one who is sad, buddy. I'm actually enjoying many more video games than you are.

If you can point out one instance where I made a suggestion as to like what I like then I will throw up a white flag and you can call me your bitch anytime you want. I'll even put it as my title, "lazy's bitch."

Your rant is based on some unfounded idea of me. I don't hate Nintendo, it's quite the opposite actually. However, I'm not so much in love with them as to not criticize them or see a fault or two, or just the plain facts. I can't imagine what the arguement would be like with you about Nintendo's decisions to go cartridge with the 64 that, in hind sight, was not the best choice, or their strict quality over quantity policy that drove some third party developers away, or that their game releases are few and far between. Nintendo is not perfect, and please don't take that as some kind of Nintendo death chant. It's just the truth.

It's obvious that you enjoy Nintendo, but you should...no, need to realize there are other consoles that can be enjoyed just as much. I realize that you may not be able to comprehend that but know it anyway so that when someone else comes in here and tries to look at things objectively that they are doing just that, and not praying for the demise of Nintendo.

Bottom line: You had me pegged all wrong. I'd accept an apology from you but I very much doubt you're even considering it. You've come across someone who isn't blindly loyal to any one console and you don't know how to handle it. It's okay, it happens on TXB too.

1.) You need to do homework on HD technology.

2.) i have won that award every year for 15 years straight. They tried to hold a similar award ceramony for XBox fans but most of the nominees didn't show because of 'FCAT's' and the ones that did show could only produce cognitive word strings such as "I'm drunk", "I'm sorry I puked in your refridgerator" and "Halo Party at Dan's!" - after the cancellation it was reformed in to the "Semi-Annual Microsoft Fanboy Finals" in late 2005 but was cut short after Microsoft noticed a trend in current demographics of no one giving a rat's ass.

I don't need to do any homework on HD technology. I'll let the games speak for themselves when they come out. In the mean time I'm going on the numbers alone and you've done nothing to convince me that I should change my point of view.

You've just confirmed for me that you are an ass, and that your "Nintendo is teh elite" point of view is seriously hampering your ability to have a simple discussion. Perhaps in the future I'll spend a sarcastic or even mildly insulting comment but I'm not sure you're worth it.