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    Tendo City Tendo City: Metropolitan District Den of the Philociraptor an actual debate in the debate forum

     
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    an actual debate in the debate forum
    lazyfatbum
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    Posts: 4,354
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    Joined: 09-21-1999
    #47
    17th December 2005, 3:10 AM
    Okay Biggs. I'll be your teacher for a minute.

    Millions may not be such an exaggerated figure. We found tombs and burial sites of prehistoric man (starting with erectus) who would build shrines to the dead. large ornate carvings, jewelry, etc and even icons, such as statues depicting them. This shows a culture that believed that 'death' was a new form of life, that it continued beyond what we know or understand. It made grieving so much easier and it helped the loved ones left behind to cope with the idea of never seeing their family members or mates again. We know that burial grounds and special tombs existed before any recorded history because we found the sites, and we know that there are thousands upon hundreds of thousands of differences both subtle and extreme but we have no clue who those people were.. unless they wrote it down somewhere or left us enough clues.

    If you look at a scale of about 500 thousand years back (the time at which we were able to identify the age of the shrines and placing the homo genus at erectus) we can see that every tribe had an idea of an afterlife and a supreme being - something more than them. It doesn't take any intelligence to notice that things have a cycle and work in a mysterious perfection (spiritual or mechanical, it is there). To see that by killing one life, you feed many others and therfore sacrifice would become the bounding of mortal suffering in the eyes of early man and a huge catalyst to all religion and belief.

    If your wife or sibling is taken from you by an illness, perhaps if you would sacrifice the largest or most beautiful animal (or other human) you might be able to bring them back or give them a better after-life. Things like this create the flow of religion and looking for answers to unknown questions. The simple act of a lightning storm would have sent fear in to minds of all early people, seeing it would be proof of something larger than they are, and it's angry at them, destroying gathered materials, homes, families, anything it can. But instead of seeing it as the natural order of weather, it was seen as an angry fist from a greater power and generating litteraly as many religions and faiths as there are people on Earth through out our history (known or unknown).

    Now taking in to account that we're currently looking at 300 thousand years and that we have a factual database of religions (from wikipedia, i'll cross search later)

    Abrahamic religions:
    * Bábísm
    * Bahá'í
    o Bahá'í Faith
    o Orthodox Bahá'í Faith
    * Islam
    o Kharijites
    o Nation of Islam
    o Shiite
    + Alawites
    + Ismailis
    + Jafari
    + Zaiddiyah
    o Ghulat including
    + Alevi / Bektashi
    + Ahl-e Haqq
    + Yazidi
    + Druze
    + Ahmadi
    o Sunni
    + Berailvi
    + Deobandi
    + Hanafi
    + Hanbali
    + Maliki
    + Mu'tazili
    + Shafi'i
    + Wahhabi
    o Sufism
    + Naqshbandi
    + Bektashi
    + Chishti
    + Mevlevi
    o Zikri
    * Judaism (see also: Jew; Hebrews)
    o Contemporary divisions
    + Karaite Judaism
    + Rabbinic Judaism
    # Orthodox Judaism
    * Haredi Judaism
    * Hassidic Judaism
    * Modern Orthodox Judaism
    + Reform Judaism
    + Conservative Judaism (Masorti)
    + Reconstructionist Judaism (arguably not a religion)
    + Humanistic Judaism (arguably not a religion)
    o Historical Sects
    + Hasmoneans
    + Essenes
    + Pharisees
    + Sadducees
    + Zealots
    # Sicarii
    o sects that believed Jesus was a prophet
    + Ebionites
    + Elkasites
    + Nazarenes
    o Crypto-Jews
    + Marranos
    + Conversos
    * Christianity (see List of Christian denominations)
    o Eastern Orthodoxy
    o Roman Catholicism
    o Oriental Orthodoxy (Monophysitism)
    o Nestorianism
    o Protestantism
    + Anabaptists
    + Anglicans
    + Baptists
    + Lutherans
    + Methodists
    + Pentecostals
    + Reformed
    # Calvinism
    # Presbyterian
    + Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
    + Unitarians
    + Waldensians
    o Latter-day Saints
    + Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    + Community of Christ
    + Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
    o Seventh-day Adventist
    o Jehovah's Witnesses
    o Messianic Judaism (not actually Judaism but rather Jewish-rite Christianity)
    * Samaritans
    * Mandaeanists
    * Rastafarians
    * Black Hebrews
    * Hebrew Christians

    [edit]

    Dharmic religions

    Religions with a concept of Dharma, also major religions of historical India

    * Hinduism (see also Contemporary Hindu movements)
    o Agama Hindu Dharma (Javanese Hinduism)
    o Shaivism
    o Shaktism
    o Smartism
    o Vaishnavism
    + Gaudiya Vaishnavism
    # ISKCON (Hare Krishna)
    # Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mission
    o Six major schools and movements of Hindu philosophy
    + Samkhya
    + Nyaya
    + Vaisheshika
    + Purva mimamsa
    + Vedanta (Uttar Mimamsa)
    # Advaita Vedanta
    # Integral Yoga
    + Yoga
    # Ashtanga Yoga
    # Hatha yoga
    # Siddha Yoga
    # Tantric Yoga
    * Ayyavazhi
    * Shramana Religions
    o Buddhism (see Schools of Buddhism)
    + Mahayana
    + Nikaya schools (which have historically been called Hinayana in the West)
    # Theravada
    + Vajrayana (Tantric Buddhism)
    o Jainism
    + Digambara
    + Shvetambara
    * Panth Religions
    o Sikhism
    o Kabir Panth
    o Dadu Panth

    [edit]

    Other revealed religions

    Believers in one God, also called classical monotheism, who follow an Indo-European culture of belief, philosophy and angelology.

    * Zoroastrianism
    o Magus (see Three Wise Men)
    * Gnosticism
    o Basilidians
    o Bogomils
    o Borborites
    o Cainites
    o Carpocratians
    o Cathars
    o Marcionism (not entirely Gnostic)
    o Ophites
    o Valentinians (see Valentinius)
    * Hinduism (Vaishnavism)

    [edit]

    Indigenous religions

    The orally transmitted canon of indigenous peoples, many involving some variant of animism and many defunct

    * African religions
    o Akamba mythology
    o Akan mythology
    o Ashanti mythology
    o Bushongo mythology
    o Bwiti
    o Dahomey mythology
    o Dinka mythology
    o Efik mythology
    o Egyptian mythology
    o Ibo mythology
    o Isoko mythology
    o Khoikhoi mythology
    o Lotuko mythology
    o Lugbara mythology
    o Pygmy mythology
    o Tumbuka mythology
    o Yoruba mythology
    o Zulu mythology
    + African religions in the New World
    # Kumina
    # Obeah
    # Santería (Lukumi)
    # Vodou
    # Candomblé
    # Macumba
    # Umbanda and Quimbanda
    # Xango

    * European religions
    o Anglo-Saxon mythology
    o Basque mythology
    o Druidry (Celtic Religion)
    o Finnish mythology
    o Germanic paganism
    + Norse mythology
    o Greek religion
    + Greek mythology
    + Mystery religions
    # Eleusinian Mysteries
    # Mithraism
    # Pythagoreanism
    o Roman religion
    + Roman mythology
    o Slavic mythology
    * Asian religions
    o Babylonian and Assyrian religion
    + Babylonian mythology
    + Chaldean mythology
    + Sumerian mythology
    o Bön (Indigenous Tibetan belief)
    o Chinese mythology
    o Shinto
    + Oomoto
    o Tengrism (Indigenous Mongol, Tartar & Kazakh belief)
    o Yezidis (Modified indigenous Kurdish belief)
    * Native American religions
    o Abenaki mythology
    o Aztec mythology
    o Blackfoot mythology
    o Chippewa mythology
    o Creek mythology
    o Crow mythology
    o Guarani mythology
    o Haida mythology
    o Ho-Chunk mythology
    o Huron mythology
    o Inuit mythology
    o Iroquois mythology
    o Kwakiutl mythology
    o Lakota mythology
    o Lenape mythology
    o Navaho mythology
    o Nootka mythology
    o Pawnee mythology
    o Salish mythology
    o Selk'nam religion
    o Seneca mythology
    o Tsimshian mythology
    o Ute mythology
    o Zuni mythology
    * Oceanic religions
    o Australian Aboriginal mythology
    o Balinese mythology
    o Maori mythology
    o Modekngei (Republic of Palau)
    o Nauruan indigenous religion
    o Polynesian mythology

    [edit]

    Neopagan or revival religions

    Modern religions seeking to recreate indigenous, usually pre-Christian, beliefs and practices

    * Church of All Worlds
    * Dievturiba
    * Germanic Neopaganism also called Ásatrú or Odinism
    * Hellenic polytheism (modern revivalist forms)
    * Judeo-Paganism
    * Maausk
    * Neo-druidism
    * Summum
    * Taarausk
    * Wicca
    o Alexandrian Wicca
    o Dianic Wicca (Feminist Wicca)
    o Gardnerian Wicca
    o Faery Wicca
    o Feri Tradition

    [edit]

    Non-revealed religions

    Philosophies not transmitted by a divine prophet

    * Carvaka
    * Confucianism
    * Deism
    * Fellowship of Reason
    * Spiritual Humanism
    * Mohism
    * Taoism

    [edit]

    Left-Hand Path religions

    Faiths teaching that the ultimate goal is separating consciousness from the universe, rather than being absorbed by it

    * Dragon Rouge
    * Satanism
    o LaVeyan Satanism
    + Church of Satan
    o Order of Nine Angles
    * Setianism also spelled Sethianism
    o Temple of Set
    o The Storm
    * Quimbanda

    [edit]

    Syncretic religions

    Faiths created from blending earlier religions or that consider all or some religions to be essentially the same

    * Arès Pilgrim Movement
    * Cao Dai
    * Falun Dafa (Falun Gong)
    * Huna
    * Konkokyo
    * Law of One
    * Manichaeism
    * Unitarian Universalism
    * Universal Life Church
    * Tenrikyo
    * Theosophy
    * Seicho-No-Ie

    [edit]

    Entheogen religions

    Religions based around divinely inspiring substances

    * Ayahuasca-based beliefs
    * Church of the Universe (marijuana sacrament)
    * Peyotism
    * THC Ministry

    [edit]

    New religious movements

    See List of new religious movements for a list based on other sources

    See hereunder for religions founded since 1850 with small followings

    Monotheistic NRMs

    * Direct Worship of the Actual God

    Indigenous NRM's

    * Burkhanism
    * Cargo cults
    * Ghost Dance
    * Native American Church

    African Diaspora / Latin American NRM's

    * Rastafari movement
    * Umbanda
    * Candomble
    * Kardecist Spiritism

    Hindu-oriented NRM's

    * Sai Baba/Sathya Sai Organisation
    * Hare Krishna
    * Transcendental Meditation
    * Sant Mat
    * Swaminarayan
    * Vedanta Society
    * Osho/Rajneeshism
    * Meher Baba (actually a Zoroastrian)
    * Oneness University
    * Aum Shinrikyo (Aleph)
    * Eckankar

    NRM's with Islamic Roots

    * Subud
    * Ahmadi
    * Dances of Universal Peace
    * Nation of Islam (Black Muslims)

    Christian-oriented NRM's

    * Unification Church
    * Jesus People
    * Children of God
    * People's Temple
    * Pentecostalism
    * Holiness movement
    * Iglesia ni Cristo

    Buddhist-oriented NRM's

    * Soka Gakkai
    * Won Buddhism
    * Hoa Hao
    * Friends of the Western Buddhist Order

    Chinese-oriented NRM's

    * Way of Former Heaven sects, including
    o I-Kuan Tao ("Way of Unity"),
    o T'ung-shan She ("Society of Goodness"),
    o Tien-te Sheng-chiao ("Sacred Religion of Celestial Virtue"),
    o Daoyuan ("Sanctuary of the Tao"),
    o Tz'u-hui Tang ("Compassion Society").
    * Falun Gong ("Dharma Wheel Work," a qigong meditation group)

    Japanese-oriented NRM's

    * Tenrikyo
    * Seicho no Ie
    * Johrei (Johrei Movement - Sekai Kyusei Kyo Izunome Kyodan)
    * Reiki
    * Oomoto
    * Soka Gakkai
    * Aum Shinrikyo (Aleph)

    Korean-oriented NRM's

    * Chondogyo
    * Jeung San Do
    * Juche (The personality cult of North Korean leaders)
    * Unification Church

    Vietnamese-oriented NRM's

    * Caodaism
    * Hoa Hao

    Malaysian-Oriented NRM's

    * Sky Kingdom

    Western Magical / Esoteric Groups

    * Kardecist Spiritism
    * Theosophy
    * Agni Yoga
    * Anthroposophy
    * Arcane School
    * Association for Research and Enlightenment
    * Church Universal and Triumphant
    * Golden Dawn
    * Gurdjieff Work
    * AMORC
    * Spiritualism
    * Eckankar
    * Thelema
    o Argenteum Astrum
    o Fraternitas Saturni
    o Ordo Templi Orientis
    o Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis
    * Process Church of the Final Judgement
    * Order of the Solar Temple

    White Supremacist Religions

    * Church of Jesus Christ Christian
    * World Church of the Creator (Creativity Movement)
    * Church of the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan [1]

    Black Supremacist Religions

    * Nuwaubianism

    Alien-based religions

    * The Aetherius Society [2]
    * Raelism
    * Scientology
    o Church of Scientology
    o Free Zone
    * Urantia, Book of
    * Universe people

    Other NRM's

    * Antoinism
    * Breatharianism (Air cult)
    * Brianism
    * Elan Vital
    * Faithists of Kosmon
    * Virus, The Church of
    * Tony Samara

    [edit]

    Parody or mock religions

    Groups that poke fun at other religions or religion in general

    * Discordianism
    * Church of the SubGenius (The cult of Bob Dobbs)
    * Church of Jesus Christ Elvis
    * Fictional religions turned Parody
    o Bokononism
    o Jedi census movement
    * Flying Spaghetti Monster (Pastafarianism)
    * Invisible Pink Unicorn
    * Kibology
    * Landover Baptist Church
    * Church of Emacs
    * Balloonism

    [edit]

    Fictional religions

    See List of fictional religions
    [edit]

    Forms of religion or alternative beliefs

    * Agnosticism
    * Animism
    * Atheism
    * Ditheism (Dualism)
    * Henotheism
    o Monolatrism
    * Humanism
    o Secular Humanism
    * Kathenotheism
    * Maltheism
    * Monism
    * Monotheism
    * Panentheism
    * Pantheism
    o Cosmotheism
    * Polytheism
    * Shamanism
    * Suitheism

    [edit]

    Nonsectarian and trans-sectarian religious movements and practices
    [edit]

    Esotericism

    * Alchemy
    * Anthroposophy
    * Esoteric Christianity
    * Freemasonry
    * Gnosticism
    * Kabbalah
    * Occultism
    * Rosicrucian
    o Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis
    o Confraternity of the Rose Cross
    o Rosicrucian Fellowship
    * Surat Shabda Yoga

    [edit]

    Mysticism

    * Christian mysticism
    o Gnosticism
    * Hindu mysticism
    o Tantra
    + Ananda Marga Tantra-Yoga
    o Yoga
    o Bhakti
    o Vedanta
    * Kabbalah (also part of Judaism)
    o Kabbalah Centre
    * Martinism
    * Merkabah (also part of Judaism)
    * Meditation
    * Spirituality
    * Sufism
    * Theosophy

    [edit]

    Magic (religion)

    * Astrology
    * Divination
    o Prophecy
    * Exorcism
    * Faith healing
    * Feng Shui
    * Hoodoo (Rootwork)
    o New Orleans Voodoo
    * Magick
    o Chaos magick
    o Enochian Magic
    o Grimoire magick
    o Goetic magick
    * Miracles
    * Pow-wow
    * Seid (shamanic magic)
    * Vaastu Shastra (Hinduism)
    * Witchcraft

    No, I didnt count them. But it looks like more than 20 to me, not counting the dozens upon dozens of other branches within each one. But let's get more to the point, of these known religions (let's assume wiki has list them all including my favorite, the spaghetti God) let's see what religions were here before the Hebrew faith in the single God (let's keep in mind that the Hebrew faith is about 3000 years old but really, it wasn't an official religion until 1025 BC where it was unified).

    Yangshao
    Dawenkou
    Majiayao
    Longshan culture
    Indus Valley civilization
    Mesopotamian culture (Lunar calendar created - this became the Hebrew calendar)
    Xia Dynasty
    Old Babylonian Empire
    Epic of Gilgamesh
    Shang Dynasty (360-day calendar created)
    Ideographic script
    Vedic society
    Vedas in India
    Moses leads future Hebrews to Canaan

    Now, i'm leaving out this little continent that we call Africa, you might have heard of it. In it was little group of people that we call Egyptians, might have heard of them too. Egyptian mytholgy ***alone*** has hundreds of thousands if not millions of spinoffs which lead to its inception (which is argued) but has been factually placed at some point around 8 thousand years ago as a starting point. Now if I typed out every single religion and off-shoot from Africa that has appeared and disappeared through history (that we know of or have theories of) I would probably crash this thread.

    All of them, (yes, all) are older than the Hebrew faith. The ones I mentioned above are the asian and middle eastern cultures which are hundreds to thousands of years before the hebrew faith and dont even get me started on Hindu teachings. You'll give me an anurism - it too is older than the hebrew faith and has many, many sects, catagories and peoples. Again, all older than hebrew faith. Not that you care, you probably stopped reading after the first sentence or two because you want to remain ignorant and hear only what you want to hear. i dont blame you, but I do find it funny that you blindly ask for correction and answers when all is available to you... people who want to have knowledge delivered to them in a packaged easy to digest form are called 'morons' and are usually a very angry bunch who dont go very far in life, atleast not the educated sense. But to live that lifestyle and then tell people that your ideals are factual 'just because'? and then beg them to prove you wrong? And when you do you just evolve your original ideal until it fits a new catagory that you HOPE cant be answered yet?? I can show you that Hindusim is the first religion on earth. Does that mean it's the most correct? I could show that the hebrew faith and judaism is the one single faith that founded the entire ideal of one omnipotent God that YOU celebrate and still denounce in your own manufactured ignorance, i's amazing. It's the first, oldest, most prolific religion on Earth to bring forth God... and you choose not to be a part of it. In your reach towards God and his word, you spit on his teachings. You might as well worship a statue... oh wait, you do. Several of them in fact, all of them denouncing God and commiting sin. Boy, I wonder if you actually kept on reading. I can imagine your post; quoting me here and there, asking more questions, telling me to prove myself when all the information is at your fingertips and only requires the person to willingly seek the knowledge. people like you will quickly put down any ancient teachings, such as lightning forming from the hand's of a man on a mountain but fail to realize that your ideals are just as rediculous and that their ideals were just as treasured and important as yours. Simply amazing, I wonder how people like you think and live. It must be easy to follow a single narrow path blindly without question, so easy one might say it's act of cowardice when confronted with the idea of existence or life in general. One thing is for sure; I pity your children.

    I dunno, maybe i'm not a good teacher. Maybe it's because i think all human beings should strive to carry all known knowledge and factual information because of that whole, yunno 'recorded and documented' thing. I can see why you would need a teacher to learn how to read, but after that it's all you. Just remember 3 simple rules:

    1.) It is true that everything is not a lie 50% of the time unless your wife tells you otherwise.

    2.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_moon_base

    3.) You're just going to die anyway so go ahead, sell that kidney.

    4.) There is no such thing as rules. (See rule #1)
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    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 26th November 2005, 12:12 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 26th November 2005, 12:37 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by The Former DMiller - 26th November 2005, 12:52 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 26th November 2005, 1:36 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 26th November 2005, 2:01 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by The Former DMiller - 26th November 2005, 3:33 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by TheBiggah - 26th November 2005, 9:13 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 26th November 2005, 9:22 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 27th November 2005, 11:57 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 27th November 2005, 12:49 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by TheBiggah - 27th November 2005, 1:59 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 27th November 2005, 4:16 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 27th November 2005, 6:10 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 27th November 2005, 6:28 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 27th November 2005, 6:54 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by TheBiggah - 27th November 2005, 7:24 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by N-Man - 27th November 2005, 7:46 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by N-Man - 27th November 2005, 7:48 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 27th November 2005, 7:52 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 27th November 2005, 8:03 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 28th November 2005, 2:23 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by A Black Falcon - 28th November 2005, 8:26 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by The Former DMiller - 28th November 2005, 8:49 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 28th November 2005, 10:25 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Laser Link - 8th December 2005, 2:21 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 9th December 2005, 2:38 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by The Former DMiller - 9th December 2005, 7:45 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 9th December 2005, 10:55 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 9th December 2005, 3:30 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 9th December 2005, 4:49 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 9th December 2005, 5:16 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 9th December 2005, 6:04 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 9th December 2005, 11:46 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 10th December 2005, 4:27 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 10th December 2005, 11:34 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by The Former DMiller - 11th December 2005, 8:40 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 13th December 2005, 9:56 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by TheBiggah - 13th December 2005, 4:31 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 13th December 2005, 7:34 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 15th December 2005, 12:47 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Sacred Jellybean - 15th December 2005, 12:56 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 16th December 2005, 11:22 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Dark Jaguar - 16th December 2005, 11:38 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by TheBiggah - 16th December 2005, 2:27 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by A Black Falcon - 16th December 2005, 2:32 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by The Former DMiller - 16th December 2005, 8:21 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 17th December 2005, 3:10 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 17th December 2005, 3:42 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by A Black Falcon - 17th December 2005, 12:05 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by TheBiggah - 17th December 2005, 2:21 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 18th December 2005, 9:21 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by TheBiggah - 18th December 2005, 12:26 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by lazyfatbum - 19th December 2005, 5:09 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by A Black Falcon - 19th December 2005, 11:58 AM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 19th December 2005, 12:05 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by A Black Falcon - 19th December 2005, 3:40 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Great Rumbler - 19th December 2005, 4:23 PM
    an actual debate in the debate forum - by Sacred Jellybean - 20th December 2005, 10:58 AM

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