10th December 2005, 3:26 PM
Ugh... Okay look. You seem to think that a mutation is going to change the ENTIRE creature into something completely different. (On another note, I'm using iconoclast in a somewhat indirect way, you are pretty much trying to tear down science because it conflicts with your religious views. It's a valid use.)
Ever try copying something in a copy machine? Take the new copy, and copy that. Keep that up, and eventually something will change. If you are coyping a picture of a fridge, it won't suddenly look like a car. Rather, it will slowly deteriorate. The one issue is in this case there is no natural selection process.
Apply that and you get pretty much what we see. We can trace back every creature to various "branches". The "tree of life", the sephiroth if you will, is pretty convoluted.
We've found a very large number of missing links. Sure we have yet to find them ALL, but that's very likely to be the case. We have however found enough.
What sort of effect will a single gene that is somehow changed have? Major, or minor? It depends on the role. To expect that a gene's mutation will suddenly make a puppy look like a whale is silly. That would take massive changes all at once. Something of that level may be expected if a more complicated thought out method of gene change were happening, like a scientist in a lab. However, "random" mutation is not likely to do that. The changes that happen are going to be very minor in most cases. Now and then, one will happen that will be very apparent. Example: moths with black coloring suddenly producing a moth with white coloring. These are mutations we actually have noticed. There are many mechanisms that allow for this.
Ever wonder about why our genes don't self-repair? Why we get cancer? Well, it's in part due to an evolutionary advantage. Hwaha? Am I insane? Not really. There's an understanding now that if our genes ALWAYS perfectly repaired themselves, which would make us immune to cancer, we would no longer be able to evolve. Being able TO evolve is an evolutionary advantage.
And, you don't have a proper theory I might add. You have an unsupported hypothesis. I don't "have a theory" so much as I'm describing an existing theory. Remember, GRAVITY is a theory. Theories are what science works TOWARDS. Holes are no reason to make up random stuff.
And yes, we have no set boundries in DNA, but you fail to understand how minor these mutations tend to be and the sheer time scales needed to really get a different looking thing.
By the way, ever bother thinking about that chinese room thing I told you about? Let me add to that. Let us now say the room the man is in is actually the head of a giant city smashing robot. Some of the chinese characters he has no understanding of represent actions the robot can perform, or sensory input. The big book of instructions the man uses to write down more chinese characters he doesn't understand (to send back out) is set up so that if he recieves certain strings of these characters he sends out specific responses. Since he doesn't know chinese, and has no understanding of what he's doing, just that he takes in certain inputs and sends out others based on that book's rules, the robot can't be said to be aware. However, if the robot damages an arm, it will, if the guy follows the instructions in the book after getting those strange characters, respond by holding it's arm in pain, or appearing to, and so on and so on. A huge battle against a giant monster moth could occur without the man inside the machine having any idea that it's happening. The robot may work to preserve itself. It all depends on the instructions. Replace that man with a computer program designed to do the same thing, and you pretty much have the major problem with the Turing test, which is that it can never provide a positive result, only a negative (negative meaning it can't even pretend to act like a sapient).
Now then, apply this to bacteria and you get where I am coming from.
Ever try copying something in a copy machine? Take the new copy, and copy that. Keep that up, and eventually something will change. If you are coyping a picture of a fridge, it won't suddenly look like a car. Rather, it will slowly deteriorate. The one issue is in this case there is no natural selection process.
Apply that and you get pretty much what we see. We can trace back every creature to various "branches". The "tree of life", the sephiroth if you will, is pretty convoluted.
We've found a very large number of missing links. Sure we have yet to find them ALL, but that's very likely to be the case. We have however found enough.
What sort of effect will a single gene that is somehow changed have? Major, or minor? It depends on the role. To expect that a gene's mutation will suddenly make a puppy look like a whale is silly. That would take massive changes all at once. Something of that level may be expected if a more complicated thought out method of gene change were happening, like a scientist in a lab. However, "random" mutation is not likely to do that. The changes that happen are going to be very minor in most cases. Now and then, one will happen that will be very apparent. Example: moths with black coloring suddenly producing a moth with white coloring. These are mutations we actually have noticed. There are many mechanisms that allow for this.
Ever wonder about why our genes don't self-repair? Why we get cancer? Well, it's in part due to an evolutionary advantage. Hwaha? Am I insane? Not really. There's an understanding now that if our genes ALWAYS perfectly repaired themselves, which would make us immune to cancer, we would no longer be able to evolve. Being able TO evolve is an evolutionary advantage.
And, you don't have a proper theory I might add. You have an unsupported hypothesis. I don't "have a theory" so much as I'm describing an existing theory. Remember, GRAVITY is a theory. Theories are what science works TOWARDS. Holes are no reason to make up random stuff.
And yes, we have no set boundries in DNA, but you fail to understand how minor these mutations tend to be and the sheer time scales needed to really get a different looking thing.
By the way, ever bother thinking about that chinese room thing I told you about? Let me add to that. Let us now say the room the man is in is actually the head of a giant city smashing robot. Some of the chinese characters he has no understanding of represent actions the robot can perform, or sensory input. The big book of instructions the man uses to write down more chinese characters he doesn't understand (to send back out) is set up so that if he recieves certain strings of these characters he sends out specific responses. Since he doesn't know chinese, and has no understanding of what he's doing, just that he takes in certain inputs and sends out others based on that book's rules, the robot can't be said to be aware. However, if the robot damages an arm, it will, if the guy follows the instructions in the book after getting those strange characters, respond by holding it's arm in pain, or appearing to, and so on and so on. A huge battle against a giant monster moth could occur without the man inside the machine having any idea that it's happening. The robot may work to preserve itself. It all depends on the instructions. Replace that man with a computer program designed to do the same thing, and you pretty much have the major problem with the Turing test, which is that it can never provide a positive result, only a negative (negative meaning it can't even pretend to act like a sapient).
Now then, apply this to bacteria and you get where I am coming from.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)