8th December 2005, 3:51 AM
Quote:I am aware of the information.
Then why are you arguing.
Quote:However, you didn't provide an accurate definition of what you consider conciousness to be.
con·scious·ness Audio pronunciation of "consciousness" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (knshs-ns)
n.
1. The state or condition of being conscious.
Quote:Memory is not needed to survive. Bacteria are not capable of learning.
Just so you know, you made me laugh out loud with this one. Is it so inconceivable to you that a life form that has evolved for billions upon billions of years longer than any life form on this planet has achieved a state of what is beyond our grasp and understandings? If it didn't learn, how does it continue to 'learn' to infect in new ways and reach multiple species? How does it 'know' how to attack certain species in certain ways, even to the point of finding a balance as to not make the host sick so it can survive in the host until host dies? Obviously bacteria and unicell organisms have extremely simple brains but that's all they need in order to function. To say that they are not conscious or self aware means that they are unconscious and anything that is unconscious cannot percieve what the relation to itself and the environment is, which, as we know as fact, is what cells do. Memory is the retention of aqcuired knowledge, anything with a brain is capable of this but more to the point, not only is memory one of the most founding aspects of our rocket to the top but it is also necessary for a living thing so it can acquire and apply knowledge to better itself, in its most simple form it allows the retention of something such as pain from an object so that the living thing remembers not to touch it again or the reverse where knowledge of how to break through certain defenses is retained and used over and over until the method doesn't work anymore (to which a step in a new direction must be made) We litteraly watch cells do this, we know they do it. We cant figure out how, we have hundreds of theories but then we have hundreds of theories for unknown things some of which we applied half naked men with glowing heads to take care of them. We know for example that feeding the brain of a living thing after it retains knowledge to another living thing has produced results that suggest that the brain's capacity to transmit information between neurons can be absorbed by another living thing. It could be that if one cell learns of the best way to inlfiltrate a host that it teaches other cells by either being absorbed or dividing (the new cell retaining any blue prints from the first). But since we know the brains are super simple, it's hard to dictate how this process works. Is it temporary? is the information lost after a period of time? can it retain more than one goal at once? etc.
Quote:I decided to get a few others involved, people who are well educated all around.
They seem to say I have actually pointed it all out rather well.
If you're trying to get my cookies, it wont work. These are my cookies. But i'll give you a pat on the head for getting another group of nerds involved who also enjoy sharing their opinion on the matter when there is either no factual information to drive any point further (which is fun) or when factual information already exists yet you act as if it doesn't and spin your own ideas which I like to call 'masturbation'.
Quote:You confuse intelligent response with mere selection. Evolution isn't "random" in the sense that it's a natural result of the laws of physics, but you seem to assume it NEEDS intelligence to operate. That's just like intelligent design only you put the intelligence in creatures without proper evidence rather than in god.
Evolution applies to the laws of physics!? Everything in this universe applies to the laws of physics you door knob. Evolution is not selection, selection is an old term used by people who thought that God goes around with a bow and arrow and kills whatever he doesn't like, such as dinosaurs or the 80's. To denote selection would say that there is a process in which an animal or species is wiped out/reaches greatness based on predetermend factors which is simply not true. The universe is an equal opportunity employer, any living things has the same chance of survival as any other living thing, evolution is why we have thousands of different mammal families and species from ONE ANIMAL SPECIES that we can trace the origins of ALL mammals (including us) back to. ONE SPECIES DJ, it was a tiny little ferret like creature and all mammals evolved from it by spreading to different regions of Earth and experimenting with their surroundings to formulate a comfortable life in the food chain. Intelligent design (again, you're a door knob) is that "Unexplained forces that by some unknown means control the universe and formed all creation through its unknown power" and is a fancy way for dumb people to try to make their religion more factual. Since all living things have a type of brain, and all living things achieve a state of consciousness where they can aqcuire and apply knowledge and create a simple understanding of the relationship between the self and the environment I would have to say you're a door knob again and that intelligence is a major key factor. The level of intelligence is infinitely confusing since every species has a different way of thinking that is broken down even further through individuality. I mean what are you trying to say? That only human beings can be intelligent? Obviously, all life is a form of intelligence. Period. Whether its capable of more depth is only a matter of perception, the fact remains that if it has a brain, it has intelligence.
Quote:You assume that the process of evolution ALWAYS requires the WILL to survive. If it doesn't have the will, it dies out you say. Wrong. Will is irrelevent. The only thing life needs is to live. Whatever traits lead to best survival change with environment. Learning isn't needed, just a mutation of the genes every now and then. Favorable mutations are kept BY DEFAULT, not WILL. A creature doesn't have to WANT to live in order to live.
Okay, i'm going to assume you're joking and move on. But just in case you actually think that nothing wills to live that is alive or in other words, protect its life at all costs just try this simple experiment at home: Pinch your cat, see what happens. As with all life forms, if there is a threat to its life, it will alter its pattern and change behavior doing whatever means to keep itself alive - by that nature we can see that since this is a constant that evolution steps in so that the next generation (times a few hundred million) will carry new genes that give this new way of life more stability. Evolution will begin change until there is a threat to the life-forms existence. That's why alligators are the same today as they were 100 million years ago, they do quite well for themselves and dont need to change, if it aint broke, dont fix it.
Quote:Look, this is very silly.
Hehe, you said it, not me. :D
Quote:Okay then, tell me, specifically, what aspects of life IN PARTICULAR lead to conciousness? Why should I consider my individual white blood cells to be aware? Why are they any more aware than my antivirus suite? Specifically, what aspects of being alive lead to conciousness?
wtf is an anti virus suite? Your white blood cells are the police of your body, they track down intruders and eat them. This act by itself is a good example of how they are self-aware. They understand that 'host' needs to survive in order for them to survive, they protect host so they can continue to live. Being alive and being conscious are the same things, you cant have one without the other. If we got an infinite scale, we could say that all matter at its most simple is alive (energy) which does seem to have a conscious to it, an intelligence that gives it form and purpose but we are talking specifically about conscious entities. The state of a conscious entity is measured by many factors but the main one we love to point to is the food chain. The higher something is on the food chain, the more intelligent we percieve that animal to be, which is somewhat true but not in the literal sense, other factors we look to are societal structures which again, doesn't tell us much. Consciousness is the simple act of being self aware, to know that you exist and that you influence all things around you. In order to exist in this state, you must be a living thing (again, on a retracted scale, there's too much we dont know to call it a total fact that applies to all existence and forms of it be it inanimate or not, its best to apply the above to all animal forms, unicell on up. There is too many questions when we ponder the strange traits of the universe in that it seems to desire the creation and perpetuation of life, why it does this is beyond our grasp, if the universe itself is an entity of any sentience it could be assumed that its traits are reflected in life on earth in that it wants to reproduce)
Quote:You say something can't arise from nothing, and so all the cells making UP our brains must have some level of awareness for the total to be aware. With that line of thinking, all the atoms making up each CELL would have to have a level of awareness for each cell to be aware. You see, this line of reasoning has reached something even you must see as absurd. Let me ask you this. Are a pile of chemicals alive? How about when you arrange them like... THIS? Yes? Sure, now you can see it.
I just explained that above actually. But yes you're right, obviously we have found all forms of existence and there is nothing more to learn from this universe. Seriously, is it that hard to imagine that an atom is a form of life? Isn't there a scale of the building blocks of life? Called a... table... or something? Doesn't it have ....elements? one of them being...... carbon? Maybe? :)
You think...? :)
My friend, for some reason you have it in your head that what you think is correct and while I love it when people experiment in their thoughts to clarify existence it is always better to see if anyone tried to do it before you and build your thoughts off of there's (unless they're Catholic). And I hope you know that I call you door knob with a smile, it is not meant to be taken seriously.