More idiot "analysts"...

[Paco]

I was really impressed when MS showed off the 360 controller, I think it's completely original. Both Nintendo and MS controllers will now offer the ability to turn the system on or off remotely... hooray for laziness :D

Are you joking? The 360 controller looks like the sidewinder to me, and that's been around for a while. There are some new functions, but I wouldn't say it's original.

I've never heard of any developers complaining about the N64 controller. I can see some companies complaining towards its twlight when they went to port a 2-stick PS2 game and ran in to issues but it was the only analog controller on the market for almost a year. Saturn had one but it only worked on a few games. Developers were, at first anyway, extremely happy with Nintendo's design.

I never said when they complained, only that they did.

The GC controller, I remember reading some developers getting irked with the button layout. But the developers that were complaining were people like EA and LuxoFlux or whatever they're called. Not exactly the pinnacle of authority in matters of controller mechanics, these were companies that wanted to quickly and sloppily port their games with no thought past making it run on each console. They didn't want to actually apply any time (money) in to R&D.

Well you just reinforced my point that Nintendo isn't thinking of everyone else, or everyone else who matters. Third parties matter, which brings me to my next point...

Don't be so quick to write off 'EA and LuxoFlux or whatever', those are the third party developers that Nintendo is losing and no matter how you want to spin it that's bad news.

But it's a bitch to play a game (on any current gen console) where two sticks are used for movement AND face buttons are being used; In those cases, you have to give up an entire degree of movement, to hit another button... or hold it Luigi Style. :D Needless to say the N64 controller is still the best FPS (Turok style) controller on the market and the most like a mouse/keyboard setup but you still have to take your thumb off the camera buttons to open a door, change weapons, etc, it's just alot more fluid than current gen. This will all change with Revolution.

Halo is not a bitch to play, and it uses both analog sticks, the face buttons, and the shoulder buttons. It's probably one of the easiest games to pick up and get a hold of. FPS are a joy to play on the Xbox because of the controller.

Take a poll on some other web forum and I'll bet you that the majority would say they would never want to revert back to one analog stick. I wouldn't, and when I pick up games like Turok, Descent, Goldeneye, etc these days I have to retrain myself to play on the N64 controller...then I thank god someone came up with dual analog. Perhaps the Revolution controller will be better than the largely regarded current controller standard for console FPS (S-Controller), but on that same token it could very well be inferior when it comes to playing that type of game.

You're right, Super Smash Bros. Melee is a horrible game to control, as is Soul Calibur 3. The GC controller does not work at all with those games, despite the fact that the Game Cube version of SC3 sold more than any other version and that SSB:M has sold somewhere around 1 furkzillion copies. Okay enough sarcasm, traditional arena fighters NEED d-pad, that's a fact. The GC d-pad is tiny - I have little finger tips from playing piano but I have huge hands, so the GC d-pad is almost worthless to me.

I can imagine alot people feel that way. But I played SC3 with the control stick... and it worked great, better than the X-Box version with the full-sized d-pad imo. I was pulling off combos and moves with ease on the anal stick. I know ALOT of Dreamcasters who play SC with the stick (and can whoop my ass hard)

SSB:M is not a 3D fighter. It's one-of-a-kind, unlike most fighters released today.

I always use the d-pad on fighting games. I've never been very good at a joystick or analog stick when it comes to fighters.

I've played Soul Cally on both the Xbox (I own that version) and the GC (my friend owns that version). I prefer the Xbox version with an S-Controller, and my friend even admitted he thought the S-Controller felt better for Soul Cally but not due to the analog stick or d-pad, but the face buttons.

So I think what it all comes down to is that arena fighters need to phase out the d-pad and move in to anal sticks so we can stop putting d-pads on controllers, 80% of the games on the market dont use them. SSB:M is a joy to play, it's probably one of the most perfect games of it's type (you can argue it's the only game of its type) that showcases how awesome a stick can be as compared to D-Pads in a fighting/brawler. Using the GC controller playing SSB:M you FEEL like you're fighting - not inputting commands which is often the case with 'd-pad fighters'.

No, they shouldn't phase out the d-pad, imo. They allow for more commands and provide for more dynamic gameplay. Think Metroid Prime and switching your vision. I'm surprised more developers don't think how to use it.

However, the best is neither of those devices. The best is an arcade stick. :D

I don't agree, not that it or your point matters. We are talking about console gaming.

ABF was specifically making two valid points: 1.) the market is currently stagnant.

Not that the games are bad, not at all, i'm not saying we're all going to explode or how th seas will boil; Sony, MS and Nintendo are doing beautifully. But there's too much of the same thing (producers dont want to risk anything, its happening in film too). I played a demo of Hulk in blockbuster and rented Ultimate Spiderman, which is Spiderman 2... with the Hulk engine for Venom, I shit you not. In the PS2 section, the entire wall was nothing but FPS and GTA clones with the occasional third person shooter that's either espionage-based or fantasy based. The only original game I saw in the PS2 section was a sign that said "Coming soon, Colossus" which is being touted as "Sony's answer to Zelda: TP". heh... back in the day they would have called it a 'Zelda killer'. They called Brave Fencer Musashi a Zelda Killer. :D

I forgot, we don't know what we want. That's bullshit. I buy what I want, and I happen to think my gaming library for this gen is very diverse. I can go out and buy/rent racing, fps, puzzle, adventure, third-person, action, survival-horror, rpg...yeah, the market is really stagnant[rolleyes]. Maybe you're able to keep up with releases unlike me. I only just got around to Chronicles of Riddick and Prince of Persia Sands of Time this year, and there are at least a dozen other new games spanning three consoles that look interesting to me.

We are reaching the end of this current generation, it should be of no surprise to you to see alot of me-too games. Developers have been building their library assets over the last 4 years and are now going to ride them out while they start gearing up for next-gen.

What's wrong with developers capitalizing on the current trend of FPS and GTA-style games? They're hot right now as indicated by the millions of copies sold of Halo and GTA. Nintendo has no one to blame but themselves for ignoring the trend. I'm not suggesting that they drop what they're doing to adhere to trends, but it wouldn't hurt them to pay attention every now and then. Can you imagine how much fun a Nintendo made FPS would be that had the pick up and play ability of Halo? Would it hurt them to make one in between Mario Strikers and Mario DDR? Why haven't they?

Remember back to the 8-bit and 16-bit days when platformers were the shiznit? Everyone wanted to make the next Mario Bros. or Sonic; present day, gamers' attention has shifted to Halo and Grand Theft Auto. It's not the consumers' fault that Nintendo doesn't provide them with the games they(the masses) want.

2.) *oh boy I get to repeat myself again! bare with me!* ahem, the Revolution controller will be the first controller that will allow players to interact in 3-D. A 3-D controller, for 3-D games. EVEN IF the nunchuck two handed design doesn't fit well, the shell design is definitely going to take hold. How do I know this? I guess I cant put it in to words... oh wait, you did it for me.



The oldest most successful company who forged the industry out of ashes and consistantly generates industry standards with each generation? I think you hit it right on the head. :D Dont get me wrong; all one has to do is point to the Virtual Boy to show a total failure on Nintendo's part, or as you said the high royalty costs, choosing carts over CD's, etc. All mistakes definitely, but mistakes that Nintendo learned from.

We haven't answered yet whether or not the shell will come with the Revolution. If it's an accessory then it's my opinion that Nintendo could be at a disadvantage because we all know that accessories generally don't do well. Not to mention it limits the audience the developer is able to reach.

Nintendo learns from some of their mistakes. They're still losing third party support and console market share last I checked. They must be doing something wrong, no? I think it's that they ignore trends, but please tell me again that it's really the consumers fault. The consumers fault for not wanting Nintendo products. I do know what I want.

Does it really bother you, ABF, to think that Nintendo isn't perfect?

Would it bother you if we thought they are? Maybe perfect isn't the right word, let's replace "perfect" with "the best." There, that about sums it up. :D

If they were perfect, or the best, then they wouldn't be in the position of losing developers and market share. If they were perfect I would only own a Gamecube, GBA, and DS, but I had to buy a PS2 and Xbox to get the kinds of games that Nintendo just won't offer.

Are.... are you... joking? :D Have you been watching this industry for the past 5 years? :D Nintendo unveils a GBA SP that looks like an NES along with the 'Classic' Series. Full priced 20 year old games that many of which, for a month or two, were in the top ten sales in America, Europe and especially Japan.

It's like backwards compatability, not everyone cares for it. I buy new consoles to play new games, my NES->GC library isn't going to magically stop working the day I buy a Revolution. It's an appealing idea to have all my games in one place but if I'm not replaying my old games now I can't gather much reason to buy/download for free/whatever just because it's available on a new Nintendo console. Maybe that's just me.

Also, you're talking about bringing old games that you used to have to play at home that you can now play on the go...on a Nintendo portable/handheld. I like the idea of going through Final Fantasy III again while I ride the bus or have time to kill sitting in the hallway between classes even though I still have a perfectly working copy at home on my SNES. I don't care, however, to play through it again in the same manner I did some 10 years ago. If I did feel like playing them on my tv I'd simply get out my Nintendo system and go for it. Again, maybe that's just me.

NES game hunting in Animal Crossing causes such a mass panic that Nintendo is forced to release codes on their website to give people the NES games; in the words of many people who signed such petitions to have the codes released "I got Animal Crossing JUST FOR the NES games!"

Mass panic? How many copies did Animal Crossing sell again?

Go to *any* department store, look in the toy section, not the game's section; Retro gamingpalooza, Atari, Intellivision, Master System, Genesis, old arcade, shit I even saw Pong :D Spyhunter on PS2 and Xbox outsold the GC version simply because it had the unlockable of the original Spyhunter and "the GC disk didn't allow for us to put a 1 kb game on it because Sony and MS are fingering our male g-spot" (i'm paraphrasing)

Nintendo isn't just masturbating themselves by proclaiming "D/l our old shit!" They're doing it because consumers are begging for it. The other cool thing is, alot of players today sprouted up in either the PSX or PS2 days and never owned a N64. That's like 700 games that people never got to play. Same for SNES to a lesser extent towards it's twlight as people were drooling over the Ridge Racer and Tekken screenshots from Saturn and PSX. "The 800 dollar orgasm". :D

Retro is in, baby! Retrolution! *giant flying lava lamps and laser show, pet rocks invade Cuba - Bacon, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airlines, marshall law the color wars, i cant take it anymore, we didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning*

Wait, do all these new Playstation gamers even care about Nintendo?

How many Playstation 2 players use the backwards compatability feature in the PS2? I've read it's a very small demographic, but I won't contend that it's an audience worth considering (why else would Sony and MS be bothering?).

These posts are getting too long, and you've not convinced me from my orginal position that Nintendo could lose more market share (what the thread was all about in the first place) with the Revolution. AND I WANT TO REMIND YOU FOR THE 4TH TIME THAT I DID NOT, DID NOT, DID NOT SAY THEY WILL LOSE MARKET SHARE AND CONTINUE IN A DOWNWARD SPIRAL, ONLY THAT IT'S A POSSIBILITY!!!!1!!

I've grown tired of speculating, and I haven't been able to see things from yours and ABF's point of view that everything is just gravy. Nothing is certain, and that's the only thing I'll stand by. When there is some more information such as if we have to buy old Nintendo games, the shell being included with the system, third party games and comments on the new hardware (more than we have now, show me something), some gameplay impressions with the new Mario or Metroid...in otherwords, something...then I'll come back to this thread or start a new one to further speculate. I look forward to the next debate we have.