7th October 2005, 10:14 AM
I agree, the S-Type is a controller that should have launched with the system instead of the Duke which is a Dreamcast controller without a jump pak or VMU slot. remember when they first showed the X-Box? It was that giant silver X; The controller they showed at the time to let people play the first XBox games was a N64 controller. They said they felt that the N64 controller style would work the best. Nintendo didn't agree. :D So they stole Sega's pad. Then after months of complaining, we finally get a controller (taken from a PC controller) that isn't the size of the system itself.
I was really impressed when MS showed off the 360 controller, I think it's completely original. Both Nintendo and MS controllers will now offer the ability to turn the system on or off remotely... hooray for laziness :D
I've never heard of any developers complaining about the N64 controller. I can see some companies complaining towards its twlight when they went to port a 2-stick PS2 game and ran in to issues but it was the only analog controller on the market for almost a year. Saturn had one but it only worked on a few games. Developers were, at first anyway, extremely happy with Nintendo's design.
The GC controller, I remember reading some developers getting irked with the button layout. But the developers that were complaining were people like EA and LuxoFlux or whatever they're called. Not exactly the pinnacle of authority in matters of controller mechanics, these were companies that wanted to quickly and sloppily port their games with no thought past making it run on each console. They didn't want to actually apply any time (money) in to R&D.
However, remember when Luigi's Mansion was the talk of the town and everyone complained because you have to hold the controller in that weird config (middle finger on R, index curled up around to B) so you could quickly light a ghost and then suck em up (while still using both sticks)?
Miyamoto commented on it and said something like "You're not supposed to play the game that way, but it does work alot better!". So yeah, definitely some issues between what Nintendo (and other devs) want to accomplish in control schemes and the actual hardware.
I think Nintendo got frustrated with overhauling the same button layout over and over to make it unique while working around both thumbs and both indexes being occupied, I think that was the major straw that pushed Nintendo in to totally throwing out traditional ideas of controllers.
But it's a bitch to play a game (on any current gen console) where two sticks are used for movement AND face buttons are being used; In those cases, you have to give up an entire degree of movement, to hit another button... or hold it Luigi Style. :D Needless to say the N64 controller is still the best FPS (Turok style) controller on the market and the most like a mouse/keyboard setup but you still have to take your thumb off the camera buttons to open a door, change weapons, etc, it's just alot more fluid than current gen. This will all change with Revolution.
You're right, Super Smash Bros. Melee is a horrible game to control, as is Soul Calibur 3. The GC controller does not work at all with those games, despite the fact that the Game Cube version of SC3 sold more than any other version and that SSB:M has sold somewhere around 1 furkzillion copies. Okay enough sarcasm, traditional arena fighters NEED d-pad, that's a fact. The GC d-pad is tiny - I have little finger tips from playing piano but I have huge hands, so the GC d-pad is almost worthless to me.
I can imagine alot people feel that way. But I played SC3 with the control stick... and it worked great, better than the X-Box version with the full-sized d-pad imo. I was pulling off combos and moves with ease on the anal stick. I know ALOT of Dreamcasters who play SC with the stick (and can whoop my ass hard)
So I think what it all comes down to is that arena fighters need to phase out the d-pad and move in to anal sticks so we can stop putting d-pads on controllers, 80% of the games on the market dont use them. SSB:M is a joy to play, it's probably one of the most perfect games of it's type (you can argue it's the only game of its type) that showcases how awesome a stick can be as compared to D-Pads in a fighting/brawler. Using the GC controller playing SSB:M you FEEL like you're fighting - not inputting commands which is often the case with 'd-pad fighters'.
However, the best is neither of those devices. The best is an arcade stick. :D
ABF was specifically making two valid points: 1.) the market is currently stagnant.
Not that the games are bad, not at all, i'm not saying we're all going to explode or how th seas will boil; Sony, MS and Nintendo are doing beautifully. But there's too much of the same thing (producers dont want to risk anything, its happening in film too). I played a demo of Hulk in blockbuster and rented Ultimate Spiderman, which is Spiderman 2... with the Hulk engine for Venom, I shit you not. In the PS2 section, the entire wall was nothing but FPS and GTA clones with the occasional third person shooter that's either espionage-based or fantasy based. The only original game I saw in the PS2 section was a sign that said "Coming soon, Colossus" which is being touted as "Sony's answer to Zelda: TP". heh... back in the day they would have called it a 'Zelda killer'. They called Brave Fencer Musashi a Zelda Killer. :D
2.) *oh boy I get to repeat myself again! bare with me!* ahem, the Revolution controller will be the first controller that will allow players to interact in 3-D. A 3-D controller, for 3-D games. EVEN IF the nunchuck two handed design doesn't fit well, the shell design is definitely going to take hold. How do I know this? I guess I cant put it in to words... oh wait, you did it for me.
The oldest most successful company who forged the industry out of ashes and consistantly generates industry standards with each generation? I think you hit it right on the head. :D Dont get me wrong; all one has to do is point to the Virtual Boy to show a total failure on Nintendo's part, or as you said the high royalty costs, choosing carts over CD's, etc. All mistakes definitely, but mistakes that Nintendo learned from.
Does it really bother you, ABF, to think that Nintendo isn't perfect?
Would it bother you if we thought they are? Maybe perfect isn't the right word, let's replace "perfect" with "the best." There, that about sums it up. :D
Are.... are you... joking? :D Have you been watching this industry for the past 5 years? :D Nintendo unveils a GBA SP that looks like an NES along with the 'Classic' Series. Full priced 20 year old games that many of which, for a month or two, were in the top ten sales in America, Europe and especially Japan.
NES game hunting in Animal Crossing causes such a mass panic that Nintendo is forced to release codes on their website to give people the NES games; in the words of many people who signed such petitions to have the codes released "I got Animal Crossing JUST FOR the NES games!"
Go to *any* department store, look in the toy section, not the game's section; Retro gamingpalooza, Atari, Intellivision, Master System, Genesis, old arcade, shit I even saw Pong :D Spyhunter on PS2 and Xbox outsold the GC version simply because it had the unlockable of the original Spyhunter and "the GC disk didn't allow for us to put a 1 kb game on it because Sony and MS are fingering our male g-spot" (i'm paraphrasing)
Nintendo isn't just masturbating themselves by proclaiming "D/l our old shit!" They're doing it because consumers are begging for it. The other cool thing is, alot of players today sprouted up in either the PSX or PS2 days and never owned a N64. That's like 700 games that people never got to play. Same for SNES to a lesser extent towards it's twlight as people were drooling over the Ridge Racer and Tekken screenshots from Saturn and PSX. "The 800 dollar orgasm". :D
Retro is in, baby! Retrolution! *giant flying lava lamps and laser show, pet rocks invade Cuba - Bacon, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airlines, marshall law the color wars, i cant take it anymore, we didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning*
I was really impressed when MS showed off the 360 controller, I think it's completely original. Both Nintendo and MS controllers will now offer the ability to turn the system on or off remotely... hooray for laziness :D
I've never heard of any developers complaining about the N64 controller. I can see some companies complaining towards its twlight when they went to port a 2-stick PS2 game and ran in to issues but it was the only analog controller on the market for almost a year. Saturn had one but it only worked on a few games. Developers were, at first anyway, extremely happy with Nintendo's design.
The GC controller, I remember reading some developers getting irked with the button layout. But the developers that were complaining were people like EA and LuxoFlux or whatever they're called. Not exactly the pinnacle of authority in matters of controller mechanics, these were companies that wanted to quickly and sloppily port their games with no thought past making it run on each console. They didn't want to actually apply any time (money) in to R&D.
However, remember when Luigi's Mansion was the talk of the town and everyone complained because you have to hold the controller in that weird config (middle finger on R, index curled up around to B) so you could quickly light a ghost and then suck em up (while still using both sticks)?
Miyamoto commented on it and said something like "You're not supposed to play the game that way, but it does work alot better!". So yeah, definitely some issues between what Nintendo (and other devs) want to accomplish in control schemes and the actual hardware.
I think Nintendo got frustrated with overhauling the same button layout over and over to make it unique while working around both thumbs and both indexes being occupied, I think that was the major straw that pushed Nintendo in to totally throwing out traditional ideas of controllers.
But it's a bitch to play a game (on any current gen console) where two sticks are used for movement AND face buttons are being used; In those cases, you have to give up an entire degree of movement, to hit another button... or hold it Luigi Style. :D Needless to say the N64 controller is still the best FPS (Turok style) controller on the market and the most like a mouse/keyboard setup but you still have to take your thumb off the camera buttons to open a door, change weapons, etc, it's just alot more fluid than current gen. This will all change with Revolution.
Quote:The GC controller... is decent as in it works, but it's not ideal for fighters as one example.
You're right, Super Smash Bros. Melee is a horrible game to control, as is Soul Calibur 3. The GC controller does not work at all with those games, despite the fact that the Game Cube version of SC3 sold more than any other version and that SSB:M has sold somewhere around 1 furkzillion copies. Okay enough sarcasm, traditional arena fighters NEED d-pad, that's a fact. The GC d-pad is tiny - I have little finger tips from playing piano but I have huge hands, so the GC d-pad is almost worthless to me.
I can imagine alot people feel that way. But I played SC3 with the control stick... and it worked great, better than the X-Box version with the full-sized d-pad imo. I was pulling off combos and moves with ease on the anal stick. I know ALOT of Dreamcasters who play SC with the stick (and can whoop my ass hard)
So I think what it all comes down to is that arena fighters need to phase out the d-pad and move in to anal sticks so we can stop putting d-pads on controllers, 80% of the games on the market dont use them. SSB:M is a joy to play, it's probably one of the most perfect games of it's type (you can argue it's the only game of its type) that showcases how awesome a stick can be as compared to D-Pads in a fighting/brawler. Using the GC controller playing SSB:M you FEEL like you're fighting - not inputting commands which is often the case with 'd-pad fighters'.
However, the best is neither of those devices. The best is an arcade stick. :D
Quote:How good it could be for the industry? Dear lord, Nintendo has brainwashed you into thinking there is a problem with the industry. It's thriving in case you didn't know, and it's expected to grow. I'm sure you'll try to sell me some doomsday prediction, but, please, spare me. I'm enjoying the current generation and I'm pleased with what I've seen of the next generation.
EDIT: I realize that, if successful, Nintendo could help the industry grow in a new direction.
ABF was specifically making two valid points: 1.) the market is currently stagnant.
Not that the games are bad, not at all, i'm not saying we're all going to explode or how th seas will boil; Sony, MS and Nintendo are doing beautifully. But there's too much of the same thing (producers dont want to risk anything, its happening in film too). I played a demo of Hulk in blockbuster and rented Ultimate Spiderman, which is Spiderman 2... with the Hulk engine for Venom, I shit you not. In the PS2 section, the entire wall was nothing but FPS and GTA clones with the occasional third person shooter that's either espionage-based or fantasy based. The only original game I saw in the PS2 section was a sign that said "Coming soon, Colossus" which is being touted as "Sony's answer to Zelda: TP". heh... back in the day they would have called it a 'Zelda killer'. They called Brave Fencer Musashi a Zelda Killer. :D
2.) *oh boy I get to repeat myself again! bare with me!* ahem, the Revolution controller will be the first controller that will allow players to interact in 3-D. A 3-D controller, for 3-D games. EVEN IF the nunchuck two handed design doesn't fit well, the shell design is definitely going to take hold. How do I know this? I guess I cant put it in to words... oh wait, you did it for me.
Quote:I suspect only because Nintendo is behind it, but please feel free to correct me.
The oldest most successful company who forged the industry out of ashes and consistantly generates industry standards with each generation? I think you hit it right on the head. :D Dont get me wrong; all one has to do is point to the Virtual Boy to show a total failure on Nintendo's part, or as you said the high royalty costs, choosing carts over CD's, etc. All mistakes definitely, but mistakes that Nintendo learned from.
Does it really bother you, ABF, to think that Nintendo isn't perfect?
Would it bother you if we thought they are? Maybe perfect isn't the right word, let's replace "perfect" with "the best." There, that about sums it up. :D
Quote:You're taking it for granted that everyone, or a majority, will want to download old games.
Are.... are you... joking? :D Have you been watching this industry for the past 5 years? :D Nintendo unveils a GBA SP that looks like an NES along with the 'Classic' Series. Full priced 20 year old games that many of which, for a month or two, were in the top ten sales in America, Europe and especially Japan.
NES game hunting in Animal Crossing causes such a mass panic that Nintendo is forced to release codes on their website to give people the NES games; in the words of many people who signed such petitions to have the codes released "I got Animal Crossing JUST FOR the NES games!"
Go to *any* department store, look in the toy section, not the game's section; Retro gamingpalooza, Atari, Intellivision, Master System, Genesis, old arcade, shit I even saw Pong :D Spyhunter on PS2 and Xbox outsold the GC version simply because it had the unlockable of the original Spyhunter and "the GC disk didn't allow for us to put a 1 kb game on it because Sony and MS are fingering our male g-spot" (i'm paraphrasing)
Nintendo isn't just masturbating themselves by proclaiming "D/l our old shit!" They're doing it because consumers are begging for it. The other cool thing is, alot of players today sprouted up in either the PSX or PS2 days and never owned a N64. That's like 700 games that people never got to play. Same for SNES to a lesser extent towards it's twlight as people were drooling over the Ridge Racer and Tekken screenshots from Saturn and PSX. "The 800 dollar orgasm". :D
Retro is in, baby! Retrolution! *giant flying lava lamps and laser show, pet rocks invade Cuba - Bacon, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airlines, marshall law the color wars, i cant take it anymore, we didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning*