24th July 2005, 6:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 24th July 2005, 7:01 PM by A Black Falcon.)
Quote:It has taken Islam more then a thousand years to achieve nothing in this department, Kill Islam and you free the women restore human degnity.If you think about Iran it went the reverse, was the highest in humanity during the Sassinid Persian empire under "Zoroastrainism" were women could serve even as priests and were equal with men, As their god is asexual non gender and the "masculin and Feminin" began with the angels "amesha Spenta" cause they were somewhat gnoistic with the duality concept all things have a opposite force, Were there is male there is female ect..
Apparently "plato" studied amongst the Zoroastrain shcolars in greek ruled persepolis.Thats were the western "platonism" comes from which then created the "gnoistic" xtian cults and even the mandeist jewish "john the baptist cult",Today we now know Gnosis Platonism as "The Matrix" with Keanu Reeves. Whats cool with those gnoistic xtians they thought Jesus was a "neo" dude that if they followed his intruction and trainning could become a "neo Jesus" gain imortal life.
Long story short unlike clearly all Gnoistic and modern things, be it Zoroastrain, xtian gnoistic, jewish Gnoistic the essence "mandeism" cult , Atheists, liberals.Muhhamud is a chauvinist prick like the old testament writers, "saint paul or apostle paul" times 10x! Blaims women for man sinning agiast god, Who made the Kabbah go black? It was mentrating women LOL! Serious thats in the fucking Koran! So women are the source and weakness of man bringing him to sin in the ideas and philosophies of Islam which contridict themselves and are hate filled bull shit.
You know your religious history pretty well... but as I said the Bible isn't much better. Maybe slightly, in the New Testament only, but the comparison... well it's just as easy to justify doing bad things with the Bible as it is with the Koran. How do you think the Christian churches have justified doing so many bad things so often over the past two thousand years?
The question that this brings up though, at least to me, is one we just don't have the answer to... why do human societies segregate based on gender? Why is it that in virtually all societies men are placed above women? That there are few to no proven instances of true matriarchal societies? Is it genetic? But humans are intelligent, and it seems like we should be able to consider things beyond just what we are programmed (to a much greater degree than most animals)... I don't know, it doesn't really make sense I guess. I guess the question is if making laws and changing society somewhat can make up for it... based on our society now, I'd say 'yes but only to a degree'. After all, we're far more equal than in most any point in history, but things in Western society are nowhere near true equality and it looks like society as a whole has just said "good enough" and given up on it like that doesn't matter...
We'll know a lot more to the answers of many of those questions as we examine the human genome, I'm sure. That is, how much is actually genetic and how much is a very-long-term social construct... we know some things now (by looking at unconnected cultures all over the world), but not all of them by half...
Quote:What you fail to mention that for instance "Turkey" has a high conscentration of Orthodox christians and non Muslims in it, Turkey once was the heart land of Orthodox christianity constantinople and the byzantine empire ,Turkey is in close prioximity to europe so that adds many liberal and secular cultural exchanges.
Yes, but Turkey is majority Muslim. When you get down to it, that's not why Turkey is what it is now. Turkey is what it is thanks to Kemal Ataturk... sometimes one person does make a difference and I'd say that that was one of those times. Yes, there was obviously a base of support for secularity or he'd never have held power, but without him I'm far from certain that Turkey would have taken the same vigilantly anti-religious path...
Quote:Lebanon has a high amount of "Orthodox christians" as well.
Wahhabist make up a 3rd of Qatar , pretty much all those radical fundiementalist terrorist groups are wahhabist its well known Osama is one,Wahhabist believe that it is Allah plan and destiny for them to conquere the entire world and establish a world empire of Islam instituting strict rigid "Sharia law". Qatar has been offset because of its relationship with Britain and the fact the majority population are all immigrants from all over.
Kuwait actually has immigrants and foreign workers as the majority of their population... as for Qatar, you could also have mentioned the progressive and pro-western king (and his wife). The two of them have been instrumental behind the series of reforms Qatar has undertaken -- adding an elected legislature (with the vote for all adults) -- not that replaces the king, but a step --, for instance... maybe it has an advantage because of its small size, and yes it's not exactly perfect (Al Jazeera is based there and connected to the government and it has had a somewhat spotty record), but far better than most nations in the region. Kuwait? They're making some early steps too, but not as many as Qatar.
Oh yes, and as I said earlier, don't act like Islam is the be all and end all of bad human rights... have you ever heard of what goes on in India, for instance? Between the abortions or murders-at-birth because of gender to the dowry deaths (ever heard of this? Horrific practice...) and women expected to kill themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres, things are not good.
http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/girlchild.htm
Reading here about the !Kung also could be interesting (it cites the book 'Nisa', which I read for a class last year).
http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/culture.htm
If you accept the idea that things can be changed and that it's not all genetic, then the question becomes why so many cultures (like pretty much all of them) in every corner of the world all came up with societies which put women under men on the social ladder... is it just simply that if you go way back in time the females had to stay around the cave (or whatever) because they had the children (and the one that has the child usually gets stuck with taking care of it), while the males went out and hunted, and this got stuck in either genes or human instincts or something? I have no idea, but at least in modern time we have made SOME progress...
Quote:Iran even right now is no role model of human rights, As they execute the most people besides china that they admit officially that is, Alot of those death row are women who get stoned to death untill their brains burst out.
Yes, Iran's record on human rights is one of the worst in the world, and I mentioned the executions thing... just yesterday in the paper I saw that two Iranian men were publicly hung for being convicted of homosexuality. But on women's rights in general things ARE better in Iran than Saudi Arabia, or Jordan, or most of the rest of the Middle East -- the face veil or full body covering is not, for the most part, used there, for instance (just a head covering).