9th December 2004, 3:09 PM
Quote:More lies of course, but you don't care just like how a two year old doesn't have any concept of the idea (or care) that they make no sense when they scream "NO" at everything.
Hahaha, holy crap what a great analogy that was.
Perhaps it would be best if you left the wit to the rest of us, bubba. ;)
Quote:First, I did ask some questions about Morrowind. You answered one of them and OB1 refused to answer any though I'm sure he could if he actually wanted to. Unfortunately, that didn't get too far with OB1 involved... though if you look at that thread page three is better.
Arena, KotOR, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate II, Quest for Glory, Daggerfall, etc... the introduction of more nonlinearity into RPGs introduces clear themes that you can pretty much say will occur since they almost always do. Yes, every game is different, and in huge ways in some respects, but there are similarities too...
Like, Baldur's Gate, BGII, and KotOR. Obviously they have nothing open-endedness-wise on a TES game, but they are also not utterly linear. There is a main story to follow that is mostly linear. However, there are lots of sidequests, many explorable areas that are optional, etc... you can spend a lot of time not doing the main quest. Definite non-linear aspects, though certainly on scope they don't compare to TES. Or even Fallout, given that most of the nonlinearity is about sidequests and wandering around and not having a hugely variable storyline or letting you be whatever party you want (in BGI you simply cannot play it with any chance of success and be evil)... in BGII though it was fine because there weren't huge-huge numbers of quests and they fully fleshed out everything. It is a huge game (probably 100 hours for most people their first time), though, so there's a lot to do... the key for that kind of game is having some non-linear aspects to give the player some choice and variety while keeping most of the game more linear to allow for more depth in each area.
As for KotOR, it feels kind of like Baldur's Gate in 3D crossed with a console RPG. Linearity? It does let you choose the order of planets, but once on each one you don't have a lot of choice. Yes, there are sidequests you can ignore or not, but not that many compared to the main quest... most of the stuff you do on each planet is for the main quest. I've described the whole issue with Bioware overextending on the scope of how much territory they were covering before, so I shouldn't have to again... not as bad as Arena (or a MMORPG), certainly, but it was no Baldur's Gate II. Somewhere in between, I think... closer to BG, but on the whole not quite there. Though KotOR is definitely a great game, so my criticisms of it are really of a 'this game is awesome and it could have been even better' type.
Anyway, TES. I'll admit one thing about them: while the I maintain that scope of the improvements in most of those major categories that TES (and most nonlinear titles) are lacking in were only improved somewhat over the past TES games, they improved in a lot in others and the effect of the changes may well have lessened the impact on the players of some of the other things... either that or the as I said 'you get used to them' things. I imagine that conversations are one of those... you just get used to the fact that they are lacking. That wouldn't stop me from wishing that they were a lot better, but as I've said the fact that you cannot do great and deep conversations with lots of unique NPCs in a very non-linear RPG is one of the reasons that I'd say I like more linear ones more... What to I mean? Like graphics. Better graphics and, more importantly, uniqueness and a designed world instead of a random one would definitely help with the tedium and repetition problems... it doesn't solve them, as a game that huge with that much to do will inevitably eventually get boring (see: MMORPGs, the prime culprits in that category)... but there has to be something said for simply giving you the choices. And a TES game wouldn't really be a TES game with a more linear design... it's good to have a variety of games out there and TES fills a niche that not many other games really try to copy directly (though many have some elements of nonlinearity).
Are you saying that you think Morrowind has a good and well presented story (that is, the main story, stories behind the sidequests, etc... I know the world of The Elder Scrolls has a lot of depth behind it, and that Bethesda can do some decent quest writing, but I've never been impressed by their dialogue, really, and their quest stuff seems more like average (well, on the good side of average) than anything else... but I'd certainly like to hear your opinion.)? Or a deep conversation system with lots of characters with unique replies (I don't think so for that one as I recall you admitted that it's not the best)? Is there a variety to the gameplay or do you eventually find yourself playing it just for the sake of some better items or a couple more levels (whether just for the sake of the levels because you're just about all-powerful already or to challenge some harder dungeon)? Every RPG has some aspect of tedium and repetition so I wouldn't expect Morrowind to totally get rid of it, but one issue I would immediately think of when I hear of a game as overwhelmingly long as Morrowind (almost makes BGII look short... ) would be that no matter how interesting the world is and how much you like the setting that it'd eventually get tiresome and the repetition would set in... upon which time you still have like 50 or 80 or 100 more hours to finish the main game story, if you even care to. (if you haven't guessed, this is where MMORPGs are worst. That whole genre seems to be designed around the idea that the players are paying so they should spend their lives playing this game... so they have very little reward for lots of work and require lots of time and effort doing things that you don't consider all that fun just to keep up. Morrowind is surely not that bad, but I don't know exactly where it fits in...)
I mean, sidequests are great. I like them. But the main story should be engaging as well... it was all well and good to get away with "kill the evil boss monster" PC RPG stories 10 years ago or more, but it's somewhat out of style now... even games that do have such gameplay (like Diablo II... though Diablo II didn't exactly have a fantastic story and it's probably at best equal (and probably worse) than a Bethesda story, at least they TRIED... that is not something that a game like Diablo II would have bothered with 6 or 8 or 10 years earlier.) have at least decent stories to explain it out (I'm not judging Morrowind there, mostly. Even if it was great, it seems a bit hard for any company to stretch a good story over that number of gameplay hours without getting it strained by long lulls and downtimes...)
You can make all of the ten-paragraph posts that you know none of us will read as much as you want!!--but GR and myself are right. The debate is over, man. I ended it in the first page, and GR ended it even further, if that's possible.
Quote:That's what I was trying to say and is the message I was trying to get across when I created the thread... yes the thread didn't really reflect that, which is both OB1's fault and mine, but that really was my original intent and is a much better question to talk about than Morrowind exclusively.
Ah.. no, that's a big fat lie. You posted a gamespy article criticizing Morrowind and mentioned the game before anyone else did. Your intentions were clear as day, no matter how much you may try to deny it. It's over, Brian! It was over a long time ago! Leave now with whatever dignity you may have left (which is none, but still...)!!