I'm in the WoW Beta Test!

[OB1]

It mostly happens in towns when you're running around bending paths and stuff. And unlike a isometric game you can't tell that they have gotten lost.

Hmm, size-wise... perhaps. But that is a solvable problem. Obviously if it was six-person parties some areas would be larger to accomodate them (I mean like buildings; the outdoor areas are mostly okay). Not a major issue here.

The engine can't handle large environments. That's not solvable unless they get a different engine.

How does this not contradict your position? I mean, on the one hand non-linearity is good in game design, but on the other hand non-linear elements in storytelling is bad? That just doesn't make much sense... I know we discussed that with Metroid Prime, but BG or Fallout are no Metroid Primes. This isn't a totally disconnected story like that! The games just make you work for your story. I like it better that way, overall. It's more realistic to make how you act and what kind of person you are affect how much you learn! And I mean this in terms of both concious gameplay decisions (in how you react to people in conversations -- do you ask everything you can, end it as soon as possible, aim for a fight with people who will, etc... -- and in terms of how your character stats should affect what people say to you (and they most definitely should. This is one of KotOR's best achievements.). Linear stories are fine, but it makes it more interesting when the player has input on the story in some fashion. And I mean either input in changing the ending or input in choosing if you want to go after the story or not... but typically you get more rewarded in these games for going after the story because you will get more quests, more experience, etc. for doing that than you will for ignoring people. It's your choice, but on that front I'd say that there is a clear better path... it's the actual choices you make in those discussions (other than 'you are stupid and I'm leaving that is...) that has no clear answer.

Oh yeah, and Fallout is as linear or non-linear as you want it to be. Like Freelancer with a time limit really. You can stay on the story or you can ignore it... you'll have to do some of it (or at least, if you know what you're doing, the aspects that will remove the time limit), unfortunately, but it's a big time limit and most people shouldn't have problems with running out of time or something. But it can be very non-linear (to the point of ignoring the story) if you wish... and even within that story there are multiple paths (based on how good or evil you want to act). Fallout 2 has no time limit and is even more non-linear. But I haven't played that one so I can't really say much else.

Oh, and of course talking with NPCs is how most of the story develops! How else could it work in games as dense and full of stuff as these? And I find it very rarely boring. This aspect of these games is a lot like an adventure game in many ways... in a good way.

*sigh*

I play non-linear RPGs for the gameplay, and linear RPGs for the (not as good) gameplay and involving plot.

Normally when someone mentions this you say 'it's how I am and it's not a problem to insult people' or something along those lines... or at least you used to.

No, I would just say that you do the same and are a jerk. :)

Um, but in this thread haven't you been saying that indirect controls are bad controls? ... either you're contradicting yourself of you haven't thought this through.

I already addressed this. Why'd you ignore my post?

'Despise' them? I don't think I said that. I said that I definitely prefer normal controls for games like this and that I think they work better, but I wouldn't say despise... that would mean that I hated the game and I did enjoy the demo. It just didn't feel much like a space sim as I know them. And for someone who likes that genre, that's not such a good thing. (and as I said, the simplicity factor is a HUGE part of that!)

If you hate complex control schemes and game systems (well, combat flight systems; Freelancer obviously has a complex economic and open-ended game model) then Freelancer would be great. But if you like having to manage the details of your space fighter, then it's not. I like that aspect of space sims (though not to the extent where I enjoy land-based flight sims... ).

When you frame it in terms of space sims I can kind of see your point... but then again I said from the start that it had some impact. Just not much of one. But for me I guess you're right that for that genre it's more than that... but as I said a big part of that is simply because the genre works so much better with a joystick-based control system. Part of it is immersion, but probably the greater part gameplay realities...

But anyway, there is also another aspect here. This has a specialized control system -- a joystick. That is different, I'd say, than the difference between clicking with a mouse and holding buttons on a mouse -- it's a totally different system. Like racing wheels for driving sims, they're both for immersion and improved control...

But I will definitely say that in the context of an isometric or third-person title the difference isn't big immersion-wise. And which way that difference swings, as I said, depends on the game... and in the case of PC games that swing is most often to the side of indirect control by virtue of its significantly greater control opertunities. For something like an RPG, direct controls are limiting... DJ had a really great point when she said that the point of the game isn't about the walking, it's what you do at points of interst, as compared to a Zelda or Mario where the walking is a big part of the point. I wouldn't want to see Zelda have indirect controls for combat either, or see Mario auto-jump over pits... but different kinds of games are different. And I do not see anywhere near as big an importance in physically moving your character in these games as you do.

Did you just completely ignore the last paragraph in my post above this one? It addresses most of your points here.

I am quoting just about everything you say... but yes, it would be harder to follow that way for sure.

You missed the one paragraph in my previous post that addressed most of yours and DJ's points!