I'm in the WoW Beta Test!

[OB1]

And when I first criticized KotOR I explained in good length exactly how that would be an utter and complete disaster with a party of six.

That's only because of the size of the environments.

Nope. Its controls were perfect for the game. The coin was an innovative way to present a traditional adventure interface and it allowed for a empty screen... like Grim, except for when you click to bring the coin up or open your inventory. It's so hard to choose between the LA adventures, but I would say that Curse is my favorite Monkey Island game... fantastic title. And no, a direct control scheme would NOT have improved it. It may not have made it worse, but it wouldn't have improved it. Like Grim Fandango and EFMI, it would have been, in my view, simply there. Not a factor that affected my view of the game beyond a 'hey that's cool you have no graphical interface at all' with Grim Fandango.

I've explained this in more detail a few paragraphs down.

You do know that most of the console RPG genre is top-down as well, right?

NO! *GASP!!!*

I know I've mentioned this before, but it's not like PC RPGs are the only ones that use a lot of top-down... console titles do too. That is, top-down or isometric. Isometric is by far the more common... BG is isometric, not topdown, of course.

I've been waiting for you to mention that. Took you long enough.
This is why I brought up that "unless the gameplay or story is really good" point. I'll play something like Chrono Trigger because the gameplay is pretty good and the story is very enjoyable to be a part of. I stay away from most console RPGs, frankly, but once in a while I'll play one is the gameplay and/or story make it worth it. In those cases a more immersive visual experience would be great and really add to the game, but it's not the main draw so I can ignore it.

As for the rest of this all I can really do is say that for me i feel completely differently about these games.

That's why they're called opinions, bubba.

I've loved Baldur's Gate since the first time I played it and still love the Infinity engine games. BGII and PT are in my top 10 games of all time list. Why? So many reasons... I love the graphics. The background map art is frequently stunning. I love how the gameplay is role-playing with a heavy dose of strategy. I love the combat. Easily the best combat system in any RPG out there. The stories are also great... far better than most videogames for the most part. If you're comparing a videogame story to a book you're highly praising the videogame... indeed, the highest praise I can think to give Planescape: Torment is that it's like playing a well written and unique fantasy novel. Baldur's Gate is my favorite RPG series of all time for sure. Well, as long as you leave out the stupid console Diablo clones...

The story is good if you enjoy the poor narrative execution. I'm not going to become engrossed in a story when it's told that way. At least, I haven't played a game that does that well enough.

There, actually, is more proof of my point that whether controls are direct or indirect (mouse click location) has very little impact on how immersive the game is. Diablo II is a far more immersive game than Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance... it's not close in any regard. It's all about game quality overall, not that one factor. It's a pretty minor factor.

All that proves is what I've been saying all along: you don't care too much about immersive controls (in most cases). If it gets the job done that is good enough for you. For me controls have to be excellent and go a long way in immersing you into a game.

All you're educating me on is that we disagree. Not that you are more right. And you won't do that I suspect because... yes... this is a matter of OPINION! Unlike how you say it is NOT hard facts! (not so) sorry to have to break it to you, but it isn't a set and fast fact that isometric games are bad or that games with mouse-based control schemes are inherently less immersive... it's in a large part how you see it. But I doubt you'll admit that.

Just about everything comes down to a matter of opinion if you really want to be that way. But certain things are more objective than others, like bad controls. Some people may prefer what others consider to be bad controls, but there are ways of defining good and bad controls. But to tell you the truth, it would make me dozens of long paragraphs to really get into it and explain it to you, and frankly I don't think you're worth the effort. No offence, most people aren't. But you especially since you're so damned stubborn. :)

Me neither, which was a definite (if not directly stated I guess) point of mine.

Ah, and that goes even further to prove my point! It's funny how perspectives work because on this we are in total agreement, yet see very differently on what it means. Allow me to educate you.

With you (and DJ, it seems), controls are just a way to reach a goal, to have some sort of interaction with video games. They are just games, after all, and as long as you are able to accomplish that goal with minimum frustration, it really doesn't matter a whole lot how you do it. For me controls make the game and are what bring you into the experience, and I want as much direct control over my characters or crafts as I can get. If I could control each individual limb, each individual muscle intuitively I would. You don't seem to be able to understand this point of mine, even though you actually do with a select few genres. For you it's space combat games. You do admit that the flight stick goes a long way in helping you "get into" the game and making you feel that much closer to a real pilot. That, at least, you can see. And before you start thinking how wrong you think I am, just stop for a moment and seriously think about what I said, forgetting that it's "God forbid he's right" OB1 telling you this.

OB1, it's not about "liking bad controls". It's about liking what works best for the game! I have no idea why you think that indirect control of characters is bad and harmful to games, but I do not agree beyond the minimal level I mentioned about Grim Fandango (as in I note 'hey it's kind of cool that there is no interface and I directly do everything' and then proceed with the adventure, quickly forgetting about the interface as I would with any game once I've used it for a while). I wonder if you'll ever accept that.

OB1 will explain this away with his quote that strategy games are different somehow... that the overhead view is more like what your character would actually be seeing. It works to a point, but only so far... Now, with wargames he would be right. Wargames are after all an extention of a wargame played on a table with metal armies. Or of a real war represented in the general's tent with flags on a map. Strategy games are really an offshoot of wargames, but they are sufficiently changed that I don't know if it's still appropriate to say that the overhead viewpoint is actually what the commander would theoretically be seeing... I suspect not, for most strategy titles, while yes for wargames. A Advance Wars or Fire Emblem fall somewhere in the middle on this ground... Advance Wars a TBS/Wargame, and Fire Emblem a Fantasy TBS/Wargame.

I already explained this, but I'll oblige once again.

In Fire Emblem and Advance Wars you are not actually playing the role of each unit. The role you are playing is actually yourself. So for instance in a game like Zelda you are playing the role of Link, and when you interact with the game world you are interacting through Link. In strategy games or stuff like The Sims, the role you are inhabiting is in fact your own self, and you are controlling your units through nobody else. You could, I suppose, have a game like Fire Emblem where you do control a character that then controls the units, but that would be unnecessary. Do you understand that? Likewise in Monkey Island when you're using the mouse to click everywhere instead of directly controlling the character, the role you are inhabiting is no longer Guybrush but rather yourself, and Guybrush ceases to be "you" and just another unit on screen to manipulate.

Does that make sense to you?