7th September 2004, 8:51 PM
OB1 Wrote:How could you not see the decay and problems with the Old Republic in the prequels and the aftermath in the OT and not get this extremely obvious point? But don't worry beause it will be spelled out for people like you in Episode III, as well as an explanation of the whole revenge thing (hence the title).
I'm not saying there aren't social and economic problems in the Republic. That there are is obvious. What I am saying is that Palpatine uses this as a stepping stone to power, but shows not the slightest overt interest in actually FIXING the problem. He doesn't want to make things better, he just wants to be boss.
Quote: I've already explained them to you. If you're not willing to understand a thing either of us has to say then you should just stop trying to discuss this.
Your explanations did not satisfy me. You and ABF seem to confuse the concepts of 'all-powerful villain' with 'villain with actual character depth'. And again, I am going by what I have seen in the movies, most of which I have seen multiple times. The movies do not even begin to explain any possible motives.
Quote:I expected more from you, Ryan. Now you're actually saying that there are fictional characters with "far deeper" motivations than real people like Hitler and Genghis Khan?? By all means, name some! Your pointing out the fact that these historical figures had what you consider to be simple motives for doing evil things shows just how bizarre your entire argument is. To say that Palpatine is a shallow villain and then to follow that up by saying the same thing about Hitler and Attila the Hun is almost as ridiculous as some of the things I've heard ABF say in the past. You find Hitler interesting because of what he liked to eat for breakfast and the kinds of suits he liked to wear, while I find him interesting because he was an actual living, breathing villain, the type that's hard to believe ever existed. The same thing goes for serial killers. I don't give a damn about their life story but the fact that they could actually commit such horrors is almost beyond my comprehension. If the only way you're going to be able to appreciate a villain is by knowing the details of their childhood, well then I find you strange but more power to you. I think I completely understand your opinion now and don't feel the need to continue this.
Boy, you are so totally misunderstanding, it makes me want to cry.
I look at historical villains through the same eyes as I do a fictional villain. After all, the only thing that seperates them is that one was real and one was not, but both are known to me only by stories I hear or read. Now, obviously, when you get down to minute details, a real person is going to be infinitely deeper than a fictional villain, but not necessarily in the factors relating to what actually MAKES them do wrong. What Hitler had for breakfast has nothing to do with why he was so evil. However, his childhood experiences, as a student, his time in the German army, and after in the Freikorps, all DID have a tremendous impact, and shaped him into the monster he was.
A fictional character doesn't have to have a past and motives as complex and detailed as Hitler to be an effective and believable villain. There are few fictional characters out there who are that complex. But they don't HAVE to be. Since they are part of a story, all that really matters is why they are, and what made them that way. What drives them to be this way. What are they looking to gain and to accomplish? These things can be quite simple and still produce a memorable character.
But Palpatine doesn't have any of that, except for the most ridiculously simple motive: Desire for total power. That's what makes him a crappy and shallow character, when characters like Darth Vader are much more believable and empathetic.
Hell, I could give Palpatine a backstory and motives in about ten minutes that would totally transform him into a character you could hate but still feel sorry for, or at least understand. It's not so hard. It's just that George Lucas got lazy with this very important catalyst, and it drives me crazy.
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