The "yet another thread ruined by ABF" Thread

[A Black Falcon]

Wow, you really are the worst gamer in the world. I have never heard anyone complain about KOTOR's combat being too confusing because of the camera angles. Not even by people who've never even heard of Baldur's Gate, let alone played a game with that style of combat. You sir, just suck beyond belief in most 3D games.

You just can't understand what I am trying to say. You obviously have no comprehension whatsoever of my point, and if that much explanation doesn't do it nothing will. Again your reading comprehension "abilities" show themselves... to be nearly nonexistant.

KotOR. You've never cared that you can't move while paused? Never gotten hit while moving to a new place and then selecting your attack? Never had issues with trying to move and give commands at the same time? Never complained about how it takes more steps to go through your inventory or equip things? Have no problem with the fact that you can't target enemies beyond a certain range? Never been annoyed by having to move characters around the corner and into the fight, while your other person is offscreen and invisible (only visible by their healthbar at the bottom of the screen)? Never had a fight where enemies came up to you on a blind side and attacked? Never were irritated by how you have to scroll through your list of attacks instead of having them out in a row of buttons to choose from? Et cetera. I find it all hard to believe. Sure, some of these are things you'd notice MUCH more on PC than consoles. But not all.

I'd also mention the simplified rules (in detail), but it's clear that you don't consider that a problem so I won't. :)

And as usual you pull out one short segment... I love how you ignore 95% of my points in every post...

You disagree that it's overcomplicated because you are a PC fanboy and do not possess the imagination required to think beyond simple complexity (sounds like and oxy-moron but isn't if you you know what I'm talking about). Can you imagine if Pikmin were developed for the PC by a PC developer? They'd probably make the most convoluted controls possible, and if you were to hear that someone was porting it over to a console you'd cry foul and complain about how it could never be done. Pikmin isn't a super-deep strategy game, but considering the amount of stuff you do in the game it's incredible how simple the controls are. That is an extremely difficult thing to do, and is why Nintendo is the best.

Can you remember what my biggest complaint about Pikmin was? Yeah, that it was far too simplistic. I think it'd have been a MUCH better game if it had been more complex. It's too simple. There are many, many great strategy games out there, most all on PC, and that isn't one of them. Not an awful game, but far too simplistic...

Anyway, KotOR has a more complex CONTROL SCHEME than BGII. Just mouse and spacebar vs. a bunch of keyboard keys. What it has is a simpler INTERFACE. Can you recognize the difference there? :)

You clearly hate complex interfaces. They don't usually bother me. Now, wargames often do get overly complicated, and that's not my favorite genre. But BG? No, I will never even come CLOSE to agreeing with you that it has a complex interface. It doesn't. Actually, it has a nicely streamlined one that lets you do anything you could want to with a minimum of fuss... there are a great many games with more complex interfaces out there. BG's is decidedly average for the genre. Not overly complex, but not overly simplified either... I think the Infinity Engine interface is fantastic. Easily my favorite RPG interface, and definitely one of the easiest to use, when you consider how complex the ruleset it is implementing is. :)

Oh, sure, there can be bad complexity. BG just isn't even close enough to that to consider it as a possibility, in my opinion.

Max Payne plays exactly like a FPS. I'm talking about stuff like Devil May Cry, Mark of Kri, Castlevania, etc. None of that stuff could be done on the PC.

But PC does have many action games with third-person viewpoints. Jedi Knight 1/2/3, Heretic 2, Giants: Citizen Kabuto (though that's part strategy game...), and plenty of others... what's lacking are the action-platformers, not the third person action titles. Yes, most of them either are console ports or control a lot like FPSes. But the change in perspective really changes how you play the game and console ports are PC games too. :)

Yeah but nobody likes racing sims.

...Um, don't you like Gran Turismo...

Yes Starcraft and C&C are definitely better on the PC than the N64, but they are still good and fun on consoles. The reverse is not true for most console genres on the PC. That's my point.

As you already know I won't agree with that. When the control scheme is worked on for a decent amount of time console titles can come over to PC just fine. I should know, I have quite a few of them... Rayman 1, 2, and 3, Driver, Extreme-G 2, Puzzle Fighter, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Giants, Rogue Squadron, Centipede, Mega Man X, X4, and X5, Future Cop LAPD, MDK2, etc... all of those work just fine on PC... yes, a couple have issues. And a few more are not as good without a gamepad. But sometimes games require add-ons to be more fun... it's the same on consoles you know. :)

As I said, console games translate better to PC than PC games do to consoles.

Aside from joysticks, not many games support or really take advantage of those other control devices, which is why there are so few genres that work on the PC. There's a big enough flight fan base that developers can make games that only work well with joysticks, but the same is not true for any other genre on the PC.

And joysticks open up a large genre to PC developers. Gamepad-intensive games could go that way, but those can work better on keyboard (though generally it can be not too much fun for a bunch of console-oriented titles) than sims could so they don't bother.

No, BG&E was not a case of laziness. It's just far too much work for a game that wouldn't sell that well on a PC anyways. Like I said, if it's too much work for someone like Ubi imagine what it's like for a garage developer.

And I'm not talking about one controller that would be used for everything, I'm talking about a set of standards for analog controls. There is no standard for the PC.

No? Wouldn't the one in Microsoft's default joystick drivers count? I mean I don't know the programming, but I know that in the joystick device properties area you can make generic gamepads with up to 4 buttons and 3 or 4 axes... that suggests some kind of standard.

And BG&E was most certainly laziness. Like Oni. There is absolutely no excuse. Almost all console ports support gamepads/joysticks, after all! I have a lot of PC games that also came out on consoles and it's only a small few that don't support gamepads... that suggests something other than 'it wasn't worth their time'. :) Either sheer laziness or they honestly thought that the keyboard scheme worked better. And it generally isn't the latter (though that was the case, most probably, in Oni).

Not platforming-intensive sidescrollers. And that's because you'd need a gamepad for that, which would alienate many potential buyers. Try playing Eduardo The Magical Toaster with a kb and you'll have a very difficult time.

Like Rayman 1? Yes, console port, but it proves that it can be done, and well... though of course I'd definitely say that the Keen games involve lots of platforming. As do plenty of other shareware platformers. Maybe not as fast paced, but they most certainly are full of platform action. :) If you disagree I question if you have played many.

As for using keyboard, it works fine if you only have to use two or three buttons regularly. Much more and gamepads really show how much better they are.

Again you didn't try to understand my point. PC genres were developed around the cumbersome kb&m control set-up, while controllers on consoles are developed around game ideas. That makes an incredible difference.

Hmm, then why is it that I hear some PC developers complaining about how limiting console controllers are? Oh yeah, maybe because PC controls are good at some things too... as for 'designed around game ideas', that's not true and you know it. Oh, some controllers were originally designed around a game idea. But after that... well, let's just say that it works the other way around. Games are designed around the controllers.