20th May 2004, 8:53 AM
I KNEW IT! I KNEW that my post wasn't saved when TC crashed! Dangit, okay I'll type it ALL up again, but it BETTER not crash AGAIN when I post it!
lazy, first I'd like to make a point about Zelda 2. There's one other thing you should be aware of. It's CLEARLY stated in the story that the Zelda you see sleeping in Zelda 2 is NOT the same Zelda Link saved in Zelda 1. In fact, allow me to go into that story. Long LONG ago, an old king decided the triforce of courage, more than the other two pieces, could lead to horrible disaster if evil got ahold of it. He decided to lock it up inside the Great Palace in the Valley of Death and set up many other palaces as locks to the Great Palace's gate. This was intended to test the character of any who would seek the 3rd piece of the triforce. Anyway, he cast a spell on all of Hyrule so that the crest of the kingdom would appear on the hand of the one who had these characteristics, but only after they had gone though much experience and reached a certain age. The Link who defeated Ganon in Zelda 1 clearly met these qualifications a few years later. Anyway, he put a scroll with all this information on it in a box along with 6 crystals, which were the keys to the 6 palaces. He left this box in the care of the line of nursemaids as they were the tale keepers and such. Years later, a prince and princess, that princess named Zelda, were in a dispute. You see, that king had died ealier, and the prince had become upset because he knew what that king knew, the location of the legendary triforce of courage (at this point, the fact that it was hidden was a legend), but apparently he had only told Zelda because he knew of the greedy ambitions of the prince. The prince outraged at this hired a wizard and threatened Zelda with eternal slumber if she didn't talk. She refused, so the wizard started casting the spell. The prince immediatly came to his senses and attacked the wizard, killing him, but by then it was too late and the spell was cast. The prince, in grief over what his own actions caused, put the princess in a palace in a small inlet of a lake and declaired that from that day forward, all women born into the royal family would bear the name Zelda (now THAT'S a way to teach a history lesson). Anyway, she had slept for hundreds of years before Link finally had this seal appear on his hand. The Zelda he rescued, while related to the royal family, was not a direct decendent of that Zelda for obvious reasons. Anyway, as Impa told Link of the more recent but still old legend, she then handed him the box from the older legend. The scroll was written in an ancient language Link never saw before, but the spell allowed him to read it (I'm not inferring any of this, including how old these legends are, the story specifically states it all in no uncertain terms). Anyway, Link decided to go forth to save this princess from long ago as well as restore the kingdom. You see, while the kingdom was rebuilding, there was a lot of disharmony. Monsters were also starting to appear in record numbers as though something was attempting to return. The people out of fear became very rebellious, and as a result the nation itself was divided into north and south. The Zelda from Zelda 1, no where to be found in Zelda 2, well, I assume she's trying to restore the nation into a whole like some sort of fantasy Abraham Lincoln.
Regarding Majora's Mask, something tells me that will end up more important to the main story than we all think. I think they're up to something with that... I'll just keep my eyes open there...
Okay, on to Wind Waker. Your theory is interesting, but there are a couple holes you must address. I'll also tell you why I personally hold a different view. First off, I hardly think Hyrule was restored after the game. In fact, the ending makes it very clear it shouldn't be restored. You see, at the end, Ganon tried to restore the land too. He failed in his wish, and the king decided to wish for hope for the future instead. Link and Zelda together defeated Ganon, but instead of dying, he turned to stone for some strange reason, and laughed at a sword in the brain. I'll get to my theory on THAT in a minute. Anyway, Link and Zelda stood before the king while the waters began to flood even the small part of Hyrule that was frozen in time. It would seem that even this small realm saved from that flood would not be spared, as though it ALL had to go. The King made it clear that he had no intentions of fighting this, because he realized something. He realized that desperatly clinging to the past made him like Ganon in some ways. He decided to live for the future, and told the kids to live for the future too. Link and Zelda decide to find a new Hyrule to call home, and the King is happy to hear this, as opposed to them deciding to revive the old Hyrule. However, he makes it clear that whatever new land they find will not be Hyrule, it will be their OWN new land. He then consigns himself to the past, allowing himself to drown in this flood, while Zelda and Link are saved in air bubbles and rise to the surface. They do set sail for a new land, but the old Hyrule isn't it. The old Hyrule is lost forever under the waves, flooding even the previously spared part. I don't think it's in the golden realm because that realm is the dark world now, and it's under the complete control of Ganon. I think it's actually physically under the waves, though frozen in time, due to all the stuff you actually find underwater. The events under the waves apparently happened exactly 100 years after OOT according to Miyamoto (I assume that century difference refers to the first return of Ganon rather than the present era of Wind Waker because with all that history, the present era couldn't possibly be just 100 years later, but the past era with the king COULD be). Anyway, it just seems a better story to be told to live for the future and not cling to the past. Now comes as to why in LTTP no one knew of this. The easy way out is the game wasn't made yet :D, but I'll take the hard and convoluted way out thank you. Consider that just finding out about the imprisoning war required getting the hidden knowledge from the many decendants of the 7 sages. Link didn't really know much of any of the legend before that. They also only told him bits and pieces, as much as they thought he needed to know. Since WW's plot simply didn't effect LTTP's plot, then while they likely knew of that legend, they didn't feel it was worth bothering that Link about. Oh yes, about why all those decendants are human (except Zelda the hylian of course). I think WW explains that rather well. It would seem that the races seem to change over time, changed by their patron diety. The ruto were turned into the rito at a certain point, as the kokiri were turned into the koroks. Likely over time, they became just plain humans, all of them. Regarding those gods, I believe they are lesser gods, created by the main trinity. After all, the goddess of wisdom created wind, air, and the laws that govern it. So, likely all these lesser gods, and the fairies, were created by the trinity to help serve the world and help it form. Regarding the sword, it's clear it was legendary even before OOT. Thus, I think it was actually made either by the goddesses themselves, or by an ancient culture using the triforce which has long been forgotten. Remember, by the time of OOT, the location of the triforce is completely unknown, and has to be accorind to LTTP. All that's known, even by the royalty, is that the temple of time is the gateway to the world where it is kept. Anyway, I say the sword was made by something that powerful because it has to be to be able to actually resist the triforce. One other note. You should know that the gods didn't really spare old hyrule during the flood. They froze some of it in time, but most everyone either drowned or escaped to the new islands. This is why the knowledge of the old kingdom was lost. When you destroy a civilization, the tech tree must be rebuilt, so for a time writing was lost because paper was lost. The people prayed for an answer, and the gods finally gave it in the form of a flood to wash away evil. Sadly, this also destroyed the old kingdom. The king held onto the frozen time bubble, because like that part of hyrule, he too was frozen in time. Eventually though, he let it go and all of hyrule finally faced their fate. The only survivors have their decendants above on the islands.
There are holes created by this, as there were with OOT. What of those portals in LTTP? How were they created? Indeed, legend says the portal Ganon found to the Triforce was on Death mountain. Now, it's clear from both OOT and WW that this is completely impossible. Thus, it's up to us to fix Nintendo's plot holes. I believe that this, as well as the legend in LTTP that the master sword was forged DURING the imprisoning war, is a result of legends becoming twisted and lost over time. Those portals probably came about due to Ganon's attempts to break free, eventually creating an alter-ego named Agahnim, which was actually Ganon's light world avatar. On that note, I do believe that when Ganon broke free in WW and again before that in WW's history, he was using avatars. The first time, it was a super powerful form just to get revenge, but that didn't work. That form was destroyed in the flood. Later, emerging again, he created ANOTHER avatar, this time though he acted more secretly, more carefully, and above all much more QUICKLY, so as to stifle any chance of someone emerging to stop him. This explains why he only turned to stone rather than dust when you defeat him. I believe the avatar was detroyed and his spirit went rushing back to the dark world, thus he actually lived. Anyway, there is the issue of the triforce, and how Ganon got the entirety of it before LTTP. Well, I think WW kinda explains it. Ganon was defeated and the children after a small talk were quickly sent away as time was short before that place was flooded. King Hyrule allowed himself to be taken by the flood. However, what of the triforce? It sat there, forgotten. I do believe that with no owner or housing to hold it in place, it reverted back to it's default location in the sacred realm, where Ganon immediatly was able to claim the whole thing. However, after his defeat, the seal was stronger than ever, so he would have to wait a much longer time. This makes his last words "there is no hope for you" all the more prophetic.
A note about Ganon in OOT. He didn't swear he would break free by ending their blood lines. He swore that one day he would break free and THEN get his revenge. He had to get out FIRST though, and to do that, he snuck out. You're right, in order to break the seal to allow himself to escape, he had to kill off their decendants. Not really needing to end the blood line, but killing the last who have that POWER, before it's passed on. Wind Waker revealed this. The decendants that were still ruto and kokiri died allowing him to escape because the power to send him back hadn't been awakeneed in their decendents yet. They existed, but hadn't awakened. Indeed, I believe that this power to seal can be given to any who are able to recieve it and likely they don't even need to be a direct blood line decendant, and rather become a decendant by the magic-line instead of by blood. I think that's possible anyway, though I go with blood line for WW. Ganon however, after breaking out in WW didn't really care for killing off Zelda and Link so much as claiming the entire triforce, which he seemed to have done. Anyway, the seal is finally completely broken by the time of Zelda 1 and his actual real body is free. This is likely due to that horrible war where he was able to finally kill off most of the decendants.
Eh, anyway I think I covered everything I did last time.
lazy, first I'd like to make a point about Zelda 2. There's one other thing you should be aware of. It's CLEARLY stated in the story that the Zelda you see sleeping in Zelda 2 is NOT the same Zelda Link saved in Zelda 1. In fact, allow me to go into that story. Long LONG ago, an old king decided the triforce of courage, more than the other two pieces, could lead to horrible disaster if evil got ahold of it. He decided to lock it up inside the Great Palace in the Valley of Death and set up many other palaces as locks to the Great Palace's gate. This was intended to test the character of any who would seek the 3rd piece of the triforce. Anyway, he cast a spell on all of Hyrule so that the crest of the kingdom would appear on the hand of the one who had these characteristics, but only after they had gone though much experience and reached a certain age. The Link who defeated Ganon in Zelda 1 clearly met these qualifications a few years later. Anyway, he put a scroll with all this information on it in a box along with 6 crystals, which were the keys to the 6 palaces. He left this box in the care of the line of nursemaids as they were the tale keepers and such. Years later, a prince and princess, that princess named Zelda, were in a dispute. You see, that king had died ealier, and the prince had become upset because he knew what that king knew, the location of the legendary triforce of courage (at this point, the fact that it was hidden was a legend), but apparently he had only told Zelda because he knew of the greedy ambitions of the prince. The prince outraged at this hired a wizard and threatened Zelda with eternal slumber if she didn't talk. She refused, so the wizard started casting the spell. The prince immediatly came to his senses and attacked the wizard, killing him, but by then it was too late and the spell was cast. The prince, in grief over what his own actions caused, put the princess in a palace in a small inlet of a lake and declaired that from that day forward, all women born into the royal family would bear the name Zelda (now THAT'S a way to teach a history lesson). Anyway, she had slept for hundreds of years before Link finally had this seal appear on his hand. The Zelda he rescued, while related to the royal family, was not a direct decendent of that Zelda for obvious reasons. Anyway, as Impa told Link of the more recent but still old legend, she then handed him the box from the older legend. The scroll was written in an ancient language Link never saw before, but the spell allowed him to read it (I'm not inferring any of this, including how old these legends are, the story specifically states it all in no uncertain terms). Anyway, Link decided to go forth to save this princess from long ago as well as restore the kingdom. You see, while the kingdom was rebuilding, there was a lot of disharmony. Monsters were also starting to appear in record numbers as though something was attempting to return. The people out of fear became very rebellious, and as a result the nation itself was divided into north and south. The Zelda from Zelda 1, no where to be found in Zelda 2, well, I assume she's trying to restore the nation into a whole like some sort of fantasy Abraham Lincoln.
Regarding Majora's Mask, something tells me that will end up more important to the main story than we all think. I think they're up to something with that... I'll just keep my eyes open there...
Okay, on to Wind Waker. Your theory is interesting, but there are a couple holes you must address. I'll also tell you why I personally hold a different view. First off, I hardly think Hyrule was restored after the game. In fact, the ending makes it very clear it shouldn't be restored. You see, at the end, Ganon tried to restore the land too. He failed in his wish, and the king decided to wish for hope for the future instead. Link and Zelda together defeated Ganon, but instead of dying, he turned to stone for some strange reason, and laughed at a sword in the brain. I'll get to my theory on THAT in a minute. Anyway, Link and Zelda stood before the king while the waters began to flood even the small part of Hyrule that was frozen in time. It would seem that even this small realm saved from that flood would not be spared, as though it ALL had to go. The King made it clear that he had no intentions of fighting this, because he realized something. He realized that desperatly clinging to the past made him like Ganon in some ways. He decided to live for the future, and told the kids to live for the future too. Link and Zelda decide to find a new Hyrule to call home, and the King is happy to hear this, as opposed to them deciding to revive the old Hyrule. However, he makes it clear that whatever new land they find will not be Hyrule, it will be their OWN new land. He then consigns himself to the past, allowing himself to drown in this flood, while Zelda and Link are saved in air bubbles and rise to the surface. They do set sail for a new land, but the old Hyrule isn't it. The old Hyrule is lost forever under the waves, flooding even the previously spared part. I don't think it's in the golden realm because that realm is the dark world now, and it's under the complete control of Ganon. I think it's actually physically under the waves, though frozen in time, due to all the stuff you actually find underwater. The events under the waves apparently happened exactly 100 years after OOT according to Miyamoto (I assume that century difference refers to the first return of Ganon rather than the present era of Wind Waker because with all that history, the present era couldn't possibly be just 100 years later, but the past era with the king COULD be). Anyway, it just seems a better story to be told to live for the future and not cling to the past. Now comes as to why in LTTP no one knew of this. The easy way out is the game wasn't made yet :D, but I'll take the hard and convoluted way out thank you. Consider that just finding out about the imprisoning war required getting the hidden knowledge from the many decendants of the 7 sages. Link didn't really know much of any of the legend before that. They also only told him bits and pieces, as much as they thought he needed to know. Since WW's plot simply didn't effect LTTP's plot, then while they likely knew of that legend, they didn't feel it was worth bothering that Link about. Oh yes, about why all those decendants are human (except Zelda the hylian of course). I think WW explains that rather well. It would seem that the races seem to change over time, changed by their patron diety. The ruto were turned into the rito at a certain point, as the kokiri were turned into the koroks. Likely over time, they became just plain humans, all of them. Regarding those gods, I believe they are lesser gods, created by the main trinity. After all, the goddess of wisdom created wind, air, and the laws that govern it. So, likely all these lesser gods, and the fairies, were created by the trinity to help serve the world and help it form. Regarding the sword, it's clear it was legendary even before OOT. Thus, I think it was actually made either by the goddesses themselves, or by an ancient culture using the triforce which has long been forgotten. Remember, by the time of OOT, the location of the triforce is completely unknown, and has to be accorind to LTTP. All that's known, even by the royalty, is that the temple of time is the gateway to the world where it is kept. Anyway, I say the sword was made by something that powerful because it has to be to be able to actually resist the triforce. One other note. You should know that the gods didn't really spare old hyrule during the flood. They froze some of it in time, but most everyone either drowned or escaped to the new islands. This is why the knowledge of the old kingdom was lost. When you destroy a civilization, the tech tree must be rebuilt, so for a time writing was lost because paper was lost. The people prayed for an answer, and the gods finally gave it in the form of a flood to wash away evil. Sadly, this also destroyed the old kingdom. The king held onto the frozen time bubble, because like that part of hyrule, he too was frozen in time. Eventually though, he let it go and all of hyrule finally faced their fate. The only survivors have their decendants above on the islands.
There are holes created by this, as there were with OOT. What of those portals in LTTP? How were they created? Indeed, legend says the portal Ganon found to the Triforce was on Death mountain. Now, it's clear from both OOT and WW that this is completely impossible. Thus, it's up to us to fix Nintendo's plot holes. I believe that this, as well as the legend in LTTP that the master sword was forged DURING the imprisoning war, is a result of legends becoming twisted and lost over time. Those portals probably came about due to Ganon's attempts to break free, eventually creating an alter-ego named Agahnim, which was actually Ganon's light world avatar. On that note, I do believe that when Ganon broke free in WW and again before that in WW's history, he was using avatars. The first time, it was a super powerful form just to get revenge, but that didn't work. That form was destroyed in the flood. Later, emerging again, he created ANOTHER avatar, this time though he acted more secretly, more carefully, and above all much more QUICKLY, so as to stifle any chance of someone emerging to stop him. This explains why he only turned to stone rather than dust when you defeat him. I believe the avatar was detroyed and his spirit went rushing back to the dark world, thus he actually lived. Anyway, there is the issue of the triforce, and how Ganon got the entirety of it before LTTP. Well, I think WW kinda explains it. Ganon was defeated and the children after a small talk were quickly sent away as time was short before that place was flooded. King Hyrule allowed himself to be taken by the flood. However, what of the triforce? It sat there, forgotten. I do believe that with no owner or housing to hold it in place, it reverted back to it's default location in the sacred realm, where Ganon immediatly was able to claim the whole thing. However, after his defeat, the seal was stronger than ever, so he would have to wait a much longer time. This makes his last words "there is no hope for you" all the more prophetic.
A note about Ganon in OOT. He didn't swear he would break free by ending their blood lines. He swore that one day he would break free and THEN get his revenge. He had to get out FIRST though, and to do that, he snuck out. You're right, in order to break the seal to allow himself to escape, he had to kill off their decendants. Not really needing to end the blood line, but killing the last who have that POWER, before it's passed on. Wind Waker revealed this. The decendants that were still ruto and kokiri died allowing him to escape because the power to send him back hadn't been awakeneed in their decendents yet. They existed, but hadn't awakened. Indeed, I believe that this power to seal can be given to any who are able to recieve it and likely they don't even need to be a direct blood line decendant, and rather become a decendant by the magic-line instead of by blood. I think that's possible anyway, though I go with blood line for WW. Ganon however, after breaking out in WW didn't really care for killing off Zelda and Link so much as claiming the entire triforce, which he seemed to have done. Anyway, the seal is finally completely broken by the time of Zelda 1 and his actual real body is free. This is likely due to that horrible war where he was able to finally kill off most of the decendants.
Eh, anyway I think I covered everything I did last time.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)