Clear Link Between Al-Qaeda and Iraq found!

[A Black Falcon]

Ugh... more stupid political views as said by Weltall...

On the contrary, we're taking out Iraq to prevent the chaos that would unquestionably happen should Saddam get a usable weapon. The greatest evil a man can do is to do nothing.

Maybe... but diplomacy and inspections are hardly nothing...

I agree. But what if the police refused to do anything about it? Are you supposed to just accept it and be at their mercy? The UN is doing nothing about the problem it faces, they hope it will just go away. That won't happen.

The UN is doing something... its just not what Mr. Warmonger W. doesn't like that policy and wants to go in with the army like his daddy did...

Hardly. In 1914 there were a lot of nationalists and imperialists looking to dominate their neighbors. While the ensuing war was worse than any before it, wars had been started for the same reason a hundred times before. And in 1939, everything collapsed because the UN's predecessor, the League of Nations, was doing exactly to Germany what the UN is doing for Iraq: Appeasement. THAT was a huge factor in Hitler's expansion, the failure of the League of Nations to do its job, and history repeats itself.

On this one I hardly know where to begin... First, yes, World War 1 was a very different situation, and the last of the wars between the imperial powers that had happened every so often for a really long time. True. But WW2? You honestly believe a word of that? Insane...

First, the League of Nations. It was a powerless body... and why? Because we refused to join because isolationists had control of the US government. And without the US, it was doomed to be a failure and prove not very powerful...

Appeasement of Hitler. Did it work? Nope. But did it hurt? Not really... Hitler was going to have war one way or the other (because he wanted vengeance for Germany's loss in WW1, and the brutal peace treaty imposed on Germany by the victorious European Allies), so appeasement was doomed to failure. But was it worth the effort? Yes... Europe desperately didn't want another major war so soon after WW1, and no sane person should even begin to blame them... but at the time the appeasements were a legitimite thing to try and probably did slow down the start of the war a little. I think it was the right thing to do, even though it was obviously, in hindsight, doomed to failure from before it started... the League of Nations was powerless from the minuite it was created without the US in it and had no chance to be a body like the UN with some vague kind of legitimate power... it couldn't do anything substantial, and what it did do was the right thing considering the situation and what they knew at the time. How you think it had any affect on the war, other than not making Germany invade Austria and Czechoslovakia in addition to the rest of Europe, is beyond me.

Of course the inspectors find nothing, it's all being hidden. Of course, none of the KNOWN weapons have been accounted for either. But here's the thing: It's not up to us to prove they have the weapons: it's up to THEM to prove they don't. They were the ones defeated in the war, they were the ones that had the UN resolution passed against them, therefore the burden of proof is on Iraq to prove to the world that they are behaving. And they are doing just the opposite. Their actions make obvious the fact that they have weapons of destruction. If they had nothing to hide, they'd be free with the proof of that. That they resist is reason enough for war.

The inspections are working as well as they can be expected to... they have found some things. Have they found it all? Of course not.. .Saddaam is definitely hiding some things. But its not like they haven't found anything... they have, such as those empty shells (that, it seems, they knew about before when they left and found them as they expected to)... and without inspections I doubt that we'd have any way to really see if Iraq does actually get rid of those missiles we know they have that break the maximum allowed range for Iraqi missiles that was imposed on them years ago.

What do we need to start finding more things that Sadaam is hiding? First, much tougher inspections and a lot more inspectors... that is the logical next step. Keeping some kind of military force in the region, to be able to threaten Sadaam if he slips any more than he already is into not cooperating, is probably smart too... but threatening on the level Bush is is completely irresponsible and doesn't take notice of what the situation is. Tougher inspections can work, if given time, a chance to work, and constant diplomatic pressure on Sadaam to comply... with the use of force only as a absolute last resort that we are nowhere near thinking about yet.

Well, aside from the fact that your scenario is idealistic and unrealistic, the point must be made that we gave Japan ample warning that we were going to create two hot new craters on their cities. They refused to listen, and they paid the price. It also must be noted that we've never used any since then. And we never would without the most extreme provocation. We don't go around bashing the skulls of our neigbors for no reason. The United States is as stable a nation as you'll ever find. We would NEVER use them except as the ultimate last restult.

Well... getting rid of all nukes is obviously a fantasy that will never happen in the real world. We do need them for deterrance...

Did we warn Japan? Yes... but NO ONE, least of all the Japanese, had any conception of the full scale of what was meant... so you can't honestly and truthfully say they were really warned...

Oh, and if we're so stable and sane, how come we've got this guy as president?

Oh, Mr. Space Marine, the US government IS the police. There is no "higher government" countries turn to to deal with this stuff. Saying the UN is the police and countries need to go to them is laughable. Unless the UN actually DOES rule all the countries it represents, which it doesn't, it has no real power. If there really was a world government, you would have a point, but there is none and I'm afraid the UN's ability to make ruling decitions is a failed idea. With no power to back up their decisions, what good are they? There is one purpose for them, talks. This is an important purpose to be sure, but they don't have the power to go beyond talking when they control nothing. That's how inspectors could just be turned away at no consequence, because the UN can't do a thing to enforce it.

Yes, the UN has no power to get any government to do anything, no army... not much at all. However, it is a powerful diplomatic force and if the US acts on its own, while it won't be technically illegal, it will be extremely irresponsible to the international community in this day and age when we want to think that we can work together more... (oh, sorry, forgot that that idea was completely alien to Bush...) Bush of course has always disdained the international community and doesn't care in the least about them so I'm hardly surprised that he'd do something as rash as starting a war. But it IS irresponsible... the international community, in the form of the UN, is the power that works like the police do... and us going in alone (Or with the British, Austrailians, and Spanish) is equivilant to the man going and getting personal revenge instead of going through law enforcement. I don't see how you don't see that...

Now then, on to things I've heard which may just be filthy rumors, but I just wanna give my opinion anyway. Correct me if I heard somethign totally a lie Weltall! Anyway, it seems there's a bill W is trying to pass to allow arresting anyone considered to be a terrorist, with that definition left to the government, and secret arrests and such with no explanation. Now then, this is America, so if such claims are true, I have a HUGE problem with that here.

As far as I know, the government (Bush and Ashcroft...) do want something along those lines passed.

Hey, we've already given up some of our constitutional rights... why not more? Who cares about 'freedoms' anyway? Blind patriotism and the pursuit of phantom terrorists are far more important!