11th May 2004, 5:32 PM
Here's the thing, you are BOTH right.
On the one hand, Weltall makes a good point about how that does reflect on the entire nation when those people did that horrible act. This however also applies to us. Yes, it was only a few of them, and only a few of us, but it reflects on the entirety of both when those people do this.
Though I have yet to see what Weltall says, I would understand that, if true, it truly is a terrible act what they did here, and Americans really should be just as upset. Here's the thing, the average American sorta EXPECTS this from them, so it doesn't phase them as much. The average American ALSO wants America to be seen as a merciful nation that is above such acts, so when someone ruins that image, they are of course going to get up in arms over it, but when someone ENHANCES that image, like the murderers that did this, these Americans seem to get HAPPY because their view of the world has been supported.
In this case, I think you two have a lot more in common on your opinion than you realize. You both are totally disgusted by BOTH of these acts, as you should be. You see someone different interpretations, but a lot of what you think, I believe is in agreement. ABF, from my talking to him, also agrees that these acts, though done by a minority that certainly doesn't reflect the majority of the military, are STILL seen that way by those who hated us anyway, and as such is STILL a big deal.
ABF has a point that the whole dog torturing thing really was close to this, except it was done on an innocent bystander it seems. Weltall has a point that his anger, and he said he realizes this, leads reason to this. Here's the thing, you both fully acknowledge that just lashing out because you think they deserve it after what they did is not the answer, for either of these small groups. While they were criminals, they still have the rights of criminals, and that includes no excessive punishments. Further more, any actions by other people outside, even though they WERE allies, and yes that DOES infer that if the criminals were free, they would be doing similar things, are the actions of those people, and shouldn't be added to the list of crimes of those in the prison, and thus not acted upon.
Weltall, I totally agree that this whole thing does sicken me. I do have to wonder if it only was put on the news to "counter point" the other big news story, but that basically is an argument for BOTH sides isn't it? If that's the case, it makes you wonder why the other acts these people have done didn't make headline news. Those actions were horrible. The actions of our own people were also pretty bad. Was it AS bad? It's hard to say really. These people did kill someone they didn't even know in cold blood, wheras our people tortured criminals they did know, but people who were already being processed anyway and couldn't do anything else to others in their current situation. It's two questions here. Is it worse to torture and humiliate, or humiliate and kill? I can hardly answer that question in any way that doesn't make me sound like an arse, so let's just agree they were both horrible sins and weighing them is pointless, as it does sorta equate us to them. The second question is whether it's worse to kill a total stranger or torture you know is guilty of terrible things, but is currenlty already in prison. Honestly, this is a tougher morality issue. Obviously no matter the opinion one can never find the latter worse, but as to whether it's the same or not, that's another thing. To be honest, by my views, whereas God sees all sin the same, and rationalizing and "crimes of passion" are not excuses, no I can't say I see them as not being equal. I will say I understand those soldier's actions more than the actions of the people who lashed out at a stranger, that is, understand in the sense that I can sorta see what went on in their minds better, but I can't let them off for that.
Here, I think deep down, you both pretty much agree though.
On the one hand, Weltall makes a good point about how that does reflect on the entire nation when those people did that horrible act. This however also applies to us. Yes, it was only a few of them, and only a few of us, but it reflects on the entirety of both when those people do this.
Though I have yet to see what Weltall says, I would understand that, if true, it truly is a terrible act what they did here, and Americans really should be just as upset. Here's the thing, the average American sorta EXPECTS this from them, so it doesn't phase them as much. The average American ALSO wants America to be seen as a merciful nation that is above such acts, so when someone ruins that image, they are of course going to get up in arms over it, but when someone ENHANCES that image, like the murderers that did this, these Americans seem to get HAPPY because their view of the world has been supported.
In this case, I think you two have a lot more in common on your opinion than you realize. You both are totally disgusted by BOTH of these acts, as you should be. You see someone different interpretations, but a lot of what you think, I believe is in agreement. ABF, from my talking to him, also agrees that these acts, though done by a minority that certainly doesn't reflect the majority of the military, are STILL seen that way by those who hated us anyway, and as such is STILL a big deal.
ABF has a point that the whole dog torturing thing really was close to this, except it was done on an innocent bystander it seems. Weltall has a point that his anger, and he said he realizes this, leads reason to this. Here's the thing, you both fully acknowledge that just lashing out because you think they deserve it after what they did is not the answer, for either of these small groups. While they were criminals, they still have the rights of criminals, and that includes no excessive punishments. Further more, any actions by other people outside, even though they WERE allies, and yes that DOES infer that if the criminals were free, they would be doing similar things, are the actions of those people, and shouldn't be added to the list of crimes of those in the prison, and thus not acted upon.
Weltall, I totally agree that this whole thing does sicken me. I do have to wonder if it only was put on the news to "counter point" the other big news story, but that basically is an argument for BOTH sides isn't it? If that's the case, it makes you wonder why the other acts these people have done didn't make headline news. Those actions were horrible. The actions of our own people were also pretty bad. Was it AS bad? It's hard to say really. These people did kill someone they didn't even know in cold blood, wheras our people tortured criminals they did know, but people who were already being processed anyway and couldn't do anything else to others in their current situation. It's two questions here. Is it worse to torture and humiliate, or humiliate and kill? I can hardly answer that question in any way that doesn't make me sound like an arse, so let's just agree they were both horrible sins and weighing them is pointless, as it does sorta equate us to them. The second question is whether it's worse to kill a total stranger or torture you know is guilty of terrible things, but is currenlty already in prison. Honestly, this is a tougher morality issue. Obviously no matter the opinion one can never find the latter worse, but as to whether it's the same or not, that's another thing. To be honest, by my views, whereas God sees all sin the same, and rationalizing and "crimes of passion" are not excuses, no I can't say I see them as not being equal. I will say I understand those soldier's actions more than the actions of the people who lashed out at a stranger, that is, understand in the sense that I can sorta see what went on in their minds better, but I can't let them off for that.
Here, I think deep down, you both pretty much agree though.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)