9th May 2004, 3:42 PM
Weltall, you're just digging the hole deeper by "explaining" how you didn't mean what I said. I said people like you hate them. That is obviously true. And they hate us back. Why? Well, given the circumstances, it's understandable...
First, try to understand that all Moslems aren't Arabs. This is important because it's the Arabs who hate us more. Oh, other Moslems hate us too, but the Arabs hate us the most. Why? Palestine, of course. Palestinians are Arabs. Thus Persians in Iran don't care quite as much about that issue.
Now... what I would say about most of the Arab world is that in many ways it has barely changed in centuries. Religion is the centerpoint of life. Religious figures have massive real-world power. That used to be true in Europe, but it declined over time until the mid 1800s when the Pope finally lost almost all his terrestrial power. But there religion and religious leaders lead their people in many ways... closer to Europe centuries ago. Many of their beliefs are also archaic -- such as their views on women. Now, some have reformed more, but the hardliners like in Saudi Arabia aren't giving in much...
Oh, and also, most of them have autocratic governments. Only a couple have any kind of elected bodies. Turkey of course is the big exception, thanks almost entirely to Kemal Ataturk after WWI, but the rest... it really is pretty bad. Like in Saudi Arabia, the government can do just about anything -- no 'rights' for the citizens, essentially. And yes, such families do live in extreme luxury while many of their people are poor. However, they do build improvements in their nations, some more than others -- it's not as one-dimensional as you suggest. It's the same politically. Saudi Arabia may be going nowhere fast, but Qatar and Kuwait, especially Qatar, have made progress.
So, the Arabs on the street see a few things. They see America with its immense military power. They see America coming in to their region and occupying their lands. They see the inevitable bad things that happen after that. They see Palestine, where the US is (rightly) seen as by far the biggest supporter of Israel -- such as how the US constantly vetoes (as sometimes the only one other than Israel opposed) bills in the UN that condemn Israel... and how we give them lots of money... etc. They see these things, and in support of the Palestinians hate us as well as the Israelis. And when we go into the Middle East and blunder around, it gets messy. Even when there aren't major scandals (excepting how we allowed Sadaam to kill the Kurds), like the first Gulf War, it causes major problems -- witness how Bin Laden took the first US invasion of Iraq. He, and many others, were deeply offended by the US having so many troops on the most holy of Muslim soil (that is, Saudi Arabia). This became a major issue for them... us "defiling" their lands. Now, the Arabs on the street don't immediately agree. But when they hear so much about how bad we are and how many bad things we are doing and precious little evidence to deny that (from our actions especially), they start to believe... and then something like THIS happens. The Iraqis reacted to our liberating them with, in the majority, cautious optimism. They hated Sadaam. Now, some caused chaos, but the majority was in support. But as the occupation grew longer, and our actions caused more and more problems, and they saw more dead Iraqis on Arab satellite TV, their anger, latently there all along, rose, of course. How people like you expect them to NOT hate us after we act as we have in Iraq is utterly beyond my comprehension, that's for sure.
First, try to understand that all Moslems aren't Arabs. This is important because it's the Arabs who hate us more. Oh, other Moslems hate us too, but the Arabs hate us the most. Why? Palestine, of course. Palestinians are Arabs. Thus Persians in Iran don't care quite as much about that issue.
Now... what I would say about most of the Arab world is that in many ways it has barely changed in centuries. Religion is the centerpoint of life. Religious figures have massive real-world power. That used to be true in Europe, but it declined over time until the mid 1800s when the Pope finally lost almost all his terrestrial power. But there religion and religious leaders lead their people in many ways... closer to Europe centuries ago. Many of their beliefs are also archaic -- such as their views on women. Now, some have reformed more, but the hardliners like in Saudi Arabia aren't giving in much...
Oh, and also, most of them have autocratic governments. Only a couple have any kind of elected bodies. Turkey of course is the big exception, thanks almost entirely to Kemal Ataturk after WWI, but the rest... it really is pretty bad. Like in Saudi Arabia, the government can do just about anything -- no 'rights' for the citizens, essentially. And yes, such families do live in extreme luxury while many of their people are poor. However, they do build improvements in their nations, some more than others -- it's not as one-dimensional as you suggest. It's the same politically. Saudi Arabia may be going nowhere fast, but Qatar and Kuwait, especially Qatar, have made progress.
So, the Arabs on the street see a few things. They see America with its immense military power. They see America coming in to their region and occupying their lands. They see the inevitable bad things that happen after that. They see Palestine, where the US is (rightly) seen as by far the biggest supporter of Israel -- such as how the US constantly vetoes (as sometimes the only one other than Israel opposed) bills in the UN that condemn Israel... and how we give them lots of money... etc. They see these things, and in support of the Palestinians hate us as well as the Israelis. And when we go into the Middle East and blunder around, it gets messy. Even when there aren't major scandals (excepting how we allowed Sadaam to kill the Kurds), like the first Gulf War, it causes major problems -- witness how Bin Laden took the first US invasion of Iraq. He, and many others, were deeply offended by the US having so many troops on the most holy of Muslim soil (that is, Saudi Arabia). This became a major issue for them... us "defiling" their lands. Now, the Arabs on the street don't immediately agree. But when they hear so much about how bad we are and how many bad things we are doing and precious little evidence to deny that (from our actions especially), they start to believe... and then something like THIS happens. The Iraqis reacted to our liberating them with, in the majority, cautious optimism. They hated Sadaam. Now, some caused chaos, but the majority was in support. But as the occupation grew longer, and our actions caused more and more problems, and they saw more dead Iraqis on Arab satellite TV, their anger, latently there all along, rose, of course. How people like you expect them to NOT hate us after we act as we have in Iraq is utterly beyond my comprehension, that's for sure.