British Red Cross Associatin has banned anything Jesus related...

[A Black Falcon]

I can't help it... I must reply. :)

We wont go into another pointless debate .

There is no way convince either of us to accepting anything as we all have chosen what we believe by choice.

But my statement in regards to christmas was that even though you dislike and perhaps even refute religion, you have no problem with part taking of clearly relgious rituals and celebrations simpily because thats what every else does.

If everyone else decided to have a prayer to god and everyone who does so gets a cookie , would you also part take in that too because everyone else is doing it.So why would you as a unbeliever part take in a religous celebration soley because you want candies and toys.

I wouldn't do that... like in the Pledge of Allegiance I most always dropped the 'under god' part because I don't agree with it. And as I said in the other thread, Christmas has more than enough non-religious (even more if we include 'not really religious anymore' stuff like Santa) overtones to make it a fine holiday for anyone.


Weltall...


Thank you, Weltall, for exactly proving my point. You just don't think that it could somehow be possible that we aren't the most important thing in the universe and that it IS just chance, good luck, and good circumstances (you know, like the fact that Earth is right in the right place in orbit around the Sun, unlike the rest of the planets) that make us here. You just can't handle the idea that we aren't the most important thing in all creation... because saying what you do is a barely covered way of saying that.

And it's just the most absurd idea ever.

Okay... you seem to either be hugely generalizing on these early ones, or you don't pay attention to discoveries in astronomy... I can't, obviously, explain everything here, since I don't understand anywhere near that...

But I will waste WAY too much of my time replying to everything you said, for some reason, given I know you won't listen to anything I say... and the fact that the simple statement 'learn your astrophysics and prehistory and give chance a chance' would pretty much sum it up. :)

You just bring up too many intresting questions that we don't have solid answers to for me not to say a lot.

1. There is infinity. There is some great infinity that just cannot end. That much is obvious.

Not in our universe, of course... the universe is finite. It has an edge. Outside of our universe? We have no clue. We cannot see there. I really don't know what is there... maybe there is NOTHING (outside of the universe(/s), no space, no dimensions, maybe there is something... we don't know, and I don't know if we ever will since seeing outside of our universe is kind of hard.

2. Somewhere within this infinite space, somehow, some molecules were formed.

The best theory I've heard is the 'bubble' theory -- one the edge of some other universe, a new one forms like a dot on the outside of that universe (bubble) and explodes in a bang, creating a new one that then spreads and spreads before petering out, and eventually new universes are created off the old ones... but that could be totally wrong. As I said, it's almost pure guesswork at this point. Which, by the way, doesn't validate your position...

3. Somehow, enough of these molecules came together and caused a giant explosion.

Heard some theories on this before, don't remember them. We don't know why yet but rest assured eventually we well might.

4. Over billions of years, these molecules became incredibly complex, and formed an untold number of galaxies, and within, an even insanely higher number of constellations, nebulae, individual stars, and planets around them, more than we could hope to count in a thousand lifetimes.

There is no such thing as a 'constellation'. You'd know that if you knew anything about astronomy... there is a universe. In it are galaxies, in strings. In a galaxy are stars, rotating around the center point on a plane. Each star has things rotating around it. And then some have things (moons) around them. Nebulae of course are huge gas clouds that stars are formed from. All of this makes perfect sense once you think of the forces that govern the universe (nuclear forces, gravity, etc).

5. There are literally endless variations on stars and planets. Thus, our star forms, along with what ends up being nine empty balls of rock orbiting it.

Yup. Nothing strange here.

6. One of these balls of rock, the third, happens to be the exact distance necessary for some amazing stuff to start happening. Out of some of the most basic stuff of everything, this particular ball of rock, completely like none other we've ever seen, escapes the primeval existence and becomes something more. Over billions of years, this rock somehow escapes chance and forms the most basic life.

Yes, the Earth just happened to be in the right place. There were a bunch of planets (depending what you call a planet, etc...), and only Earth was in the right place... life formed on Mars too, and well might have started on Venus, but those planets weren't the right distance so it failed there. There of course was also running water once on Mars, but because of how far away from the sun it is that all dried up... we are lucky. Also... we don't know how life began on the Earth (eg how the microbes first formed). There was a theory of some 'soup' in the oceans where the first algae formed, or maybe stuff falling off a asteroid, but I don't think we know for sure... it's definitely a big mystery at this point.

7. Against impossible odds, the conditions for this simple life form are such that it evolves. And evolves more. And more. This life takes on sentience, a completely new concept. Since the very beginning of everything, chemical reactions have always been happenstance and completely chaotic. Now, there are chemical reactions that can control themselves to an extent.

Hardly impossible, since it happened... but you bring up the biggest unknown in this whole debate, and one we truly have no answer for. How likely is all this? How likely is it for life to develop? We honestly have no clue. People have guesses all over the map, from intelligent species on every other solar system to just a couple in the galaxy to maybe in other galaxies... but at this point, all we can do is guess and look at what we know. The existance of ancient life on Mars is a BIG plus for the 'more common' side, though... sure, it died out, but it was there -- proving that we aren't the only place anywhere.

8. This life somehow ceases to be a mindless extension of the chaos that bore it, and acquires the ability to think and reason.

Uh, you call that so strange a idea? Sure, plants were first, but once you have plants I think that some kind of animals is inevitable... the two work together, with one you will find the other. Animals probably developed from early plants... but of course since we're talking about single cellular organisms here the definitions make it tough to draw an exact line.

9. We now have, again, against impossible odds, an ecosystem. We have the one place in the known infinity that has a paradise for living things. Over aeons, species live and die, and acquire new abilites, basic emotions. Eventually, life forms are beings of incredible complexity. No longer tiny, simplistic beings, life has now achieved an art form, as it were. Creatures now possess complex forms, and have completely adapted to their environment. They are much like machines we make today.

Evolution at work. Nothing amazing or strange or "hand of god" related... bigger and smarter = more capable and able to get more food! It's obvious.

10. One of these countless species evolves. This being is unremarkable in many ways, being weaker, smaller, and slighter of senses than many larger beasts. Yet, it survives, and even thrives. This being eventually creates generations of offspring that, over time, alter themselves slightly. One of these dozens of variations, the human, is born.

This proves how you find us the greatest thing and the most unique thing in all creation once again.

Now you skip many hundreds of millions of years of evolution in the blink of an eye... humans didn't just "appear". They are the result of millions and millions of years of evolution of monkey-like creatures, the ones who happened to be small and resourceful enough to survive the many extinctions that wiped out species routinely. Yes, man was different... but it has been proven that over time humans have gained in intelligence. Early proto-humans were nowhere near as smart as us... and the fact that they were intelligent is both luck and evolution. Because any creature shaped like a human that didn't have a big brain would be dead in a second... humans are slow, weak, have bad hearing and eyesight, etc... the brain and opposable thumbs are the only things we have going for us. So the fact that we have those things shows that our ancient ancestors adapted the traits that led them on the path to success, as all species try to do... and happened into creating something unique.

11. This human has a brain exponentially more advanced than that of any other creature. It goes far beyond basic instinct, and develops higher thinking. It survives against odds and eventually becomes a social animal. It creates coverings, shelters, skins, and eventually learns new secrets, like fire, weapons, and language.

Other species use tools too, of course... see sea otters breaking things on rocks, chimps using sticks to get ants out of their nests, etc... as I said, the most intellligent chimps are as smart as very young children (what was it, 3 year olds or something? Maybe more?). We are just the lucky ones, the ones who developed even bigger and more useful brains... you clearly take this as an act of divine providence creating one great species to rule over them all with its intelligence, but I see it as a move of evolution that, since we have no other planet with a developed ecosystem to compare it to, we cannot accurately guess at what the rarity or chance of it happening really are. It well might be rare... it took just the right set of circumstances, disasters, land forms, and all the rest... after all dinosaurs never gained high intelligence after millions of years. You need just the right species in the right place... we were lucky enough to be there. And for all we know something like that could have happened in some other planet, but we have NO way of knowing.

12. Development continues. The human now moves beyond merely eating plants and other animals, and learns how to cleverly farm and harvest these things. Man forms complex languages and heirarchies. Man also thinks like no other. Man questions things, wonders at his own existence, and is aware of there being things unknown, and with that, a desire to discover them. Man thinks of gods, and God in particular. Man begins to form beliefs and rituals, and unlike anything before it, practices recreation, creating things that have no practical purpose. Man learns language, creates music, creates stories and sagas. And man
spreads the world.

Heh... those go in a different order... :)

Obviously before language proto-humans thought about things in whatever way they could, but without being able to interact with others it didn't matter much... language (of any form -- oral, pictoral, glyphic, hand motions, writing...) is the basis of human existance, and would come before humans moved very far beyond the rest of the animals.

Of course lots of animals use sounds to communicate, so humans are hardly unique there. We just have the brain to use that communication for greater things than any other creatures can.

As for gods, I've explained them already -- you are right, humans question their surroundings to a degree unlike what we see in animals. So of course they wondered 'how could this world be' and 'why does it work'. And at that phase, some 'greater beings' who control it seems like the most obvious, and at that time probably only, reasonable thought... and though humankind developed and became greater the lessons we learned early on stuck with us. Here's an example... things such as primal fears -- we are afraid of snakes, of rats, etc. in a primal way but are not afraid in that way of bombs... the idea of religion seems to have 'stuck' like that for some reason.

13. Man is so spread out from their once-nomadic lifestyle, yet all of them experience this evolution of thought, some faster than others. Man moves from the concept of villages to cities, and from cities to nations, from nations to empires, all under complex systems of government. Man forms armies to protect or to conquer.

'some faster than others'? You mean the speed of innovation? That's another great question... invention and innovation. What do the great inventions take? How hard is it, truly, to discover something revolutionary? Hard, clearly, given how long so many things took to be discovered... it takes one person, and a spark of innovation or luck, to discover the true radical changes... digging up metals (as opposed to just picking things up off the ground, the idea of mining...), the wheel, combing things to make something better (Bronze, improved Iron, and Steel being some of the most important...), etc, etc... and then you must consider their position. For instance, the North American natives. They did not have any pack animal larger than a dog until Europeans arrived. That obviously greatly slowed their development... or in South America, with just Llamas... there you might invent the wheel, but with just dogs and humans? Even the wheel will take a lot longer to think of because you don't have big animals lying around to think of putting to use that way...

There are so many aspects to this, and I find it a very interesting thing... but none of it has anything to do with a god. I know, I know -- you probably think that many of those people were divinely inspired or something. Once again, you are afraid of the idea that chance, luck, and good circumstances have had such a complete role in creating the world as we know it.

14. Over thousands of years, Empires rise and fall. Suddenly, the Industrial revolution occurs, and with it, humanity begins to advance at a far more rapid rate. Of these empires, one of them becomes the master of them all, the British. And this empire gives birth to America, who wins its independence from Britain against heavy odds.

You just focus on this because you're American. If you were British, the American Revolution would be like two paragraphs in your textbook... this just shows how to all people, their own society and people are the most important and the focus. It's a completely natural human reaction, focusing on your own group, and it makes sense... but acting like we won the Revolution because of divine aid is insane if you look at it in the grand scheme of things, or even in the scheme of how exactly we won that independance. (hint: it had a LOT, like nearly everything, to do with how well Ben Franklin charmed the French)

Oh yeah, and the industrial revolution wasn't "sudden". It, like all things, developed over centuries from early inventions and discoveries to more that build on the first... the industrial revolution happened fast, but because of a competely explainable set of circumstances and factors that combined to make that the perfect time for such a fundamental change to society, and one that had been building from the discovery of gunpowder (the idea of people making explosions by way of technology, not magic...) so many years before.

15. The 20th century begins, and the industrial revolution kicks into overdrive. Humans do things that they could never even dream of. We create a weapon that can kill millions in an instant. We can fly higher than birds and swim deeper than fish. We can harness primal elements and use them for our own purposes. We have the ability to leave our own world and travel beyond it. During this time, America, once a step-child colony of a great empire, becomes the greatest in history, dominating the world's economy and wielding enough power to annihilate the world many times over.

Yeah, in the last century it does feel like time accelerated and we developed so much faster, doesn't it? Tech just hit the critical mass that it needed to explode in a dramatic fashion... it is truly amazing to see how utterly different we are from people 200 years ago, compared to anyone in just about any other time comparing themselves to people (in a general sense, not in the sense of any specific people) 200 years before them. Amazing? Yes. But not magical or godlike (same idea, something not natural...). Technology as we know it today had just hit the point it needed to explode out and change the world.

16. Somewhere out of this entire mix, I am born. I am lucky enough to live a good life, despite a few shaky years. And I now sit here at my computer, defending my beliefs.

Lucky, aren't you? We are all very lucky that we weren't born in Sub-Saharan Africa, but it's luck that does that, not "god"...