Dumpster

[OB1]

You want me to completely ignore that previous post? Oookay...

You have some points there, actually... there are superficial similarities. Still, when you look at how the game implements its features and how it configures them for play, it becomes clear that F-Zero and GT take nearly opposite stands on most all issues there (save the fact that the tracks are circular and you can't go far off them). That is simply not the case with Wars and Empire... you have something there, but you aren't really looking at what makes the game different from other games in its genre, which is the key subject here.

The games share all of the same basic qualities, which is why they are both in the same genre. Now as soon as you venture beyond the very basic aspects of the games you start to notice some huge differences, and that is the same way with Empire and Wars.

Sure, racing games, like wargames, go way back. But I'd think that would support my case that Wars isn't unique far more than yours that it is!

It's as unique as the first Mario Kart is. Or Super Mario Bros. 1. All three games took basic elements of the genre and brought them up several notches, adding several seemingly small elements which make for very unique gameplay experiences.

As I said, I didn't make that up! I just read your statement and applied what I saw as what your terms meant to your words... then I said that if your definition of the terms is different, please tell me that! I mean, I can't be expected to telepathically know what you meant there, can I? All I can do is define it in the way that I understand it to be defined and ask you to tell me if I'm right or not... which is what I did... you didn't respond to my question though, which leaves me no choice but to say that my point still absolutely stands until you state your definitions of the terms.

To refresh your memory...




Not true. That would be a dumb thing for me to say... I never said that that was the only difference! Read what I wrote! I merely said that that is the main difference, and it provides for good classification that doesn't resort to "console" vs "PC"...

Sub-genres. Yes, Wars is of course in a different sub-genre than a wargame or Warlords. However... they have more similarities than Mario Kart and Gran Turismo, I'd certainly say...oh, sure, like MK Wars is simplfied compared to the more complex games in their genres... but still... I just think that your assumption that that is the first game to have turn-based strategy, unit building, resources to collect (in the form of money from cities), and rock-paper-sissors strategic ("chess-like") combat (those are the elements AW combines, after all) is a complete fallacy. *goes to look for evidence of that fact*



I said "after all" because earlier on I had mentioned all of those aspects at at least some point and you had never directly argued that there were any others! What else was I supposed to think?

You completely made up some lies and then pretended that I said them! And in addition to that you went on and changed the subject! You do this all of the time and don't even realize it. I've made my points as clear as they possibly could be.

Please explain in depth what this basic statement of yours means and how Wars isn't like any of the games I mentioned.

Now, as I said, I conceed that the anime-style graphics are probably unique to Wars in the genre. But controls? Interface? And especially game mechanics? See no logic there...

Unless you see Wars as somehow different from how I describe it? You haven't attempted your own definition of the game, you know... how about one? I'd like to hear how it differs from how I have defined the game (and the subgenre) at least twenty times now in this thread, and how you explain that its so differet from the games I see as being so similar to it...

Want big differences? Here you go:

-The controls are nothing alike, and I don't even know why I have to explain that unless you never played Empire.
-The interface? Come on, don't tell me that you think they're even remotely similar to each other. You do know what I mean by interface. right?
-You don't start out with several different units all lined up on your side
-In Empire the map is hidden until you explore it.
-You cannot detect enemy pieces unless you are right next to them.
-Armies cannot move onto their own cities, they will be destroyed if they try.
-You can let your units move randomly.
-The game isn't even totally turn-based as other players' moves are performed while the computer is waiting for a command from you.
-It takes several turns to create units in factories.

Blah blah blah, there are dozens of other differences between the two games, far more than the number of differences between F-Zero GX and Gran Turismo.

No, none of those games are similar enough to be in the same subgenre. But Empire? When we get there your case gets ... weak. Especially when you consider that I am absolutely sure that there were other wargames back then which had unit-building (but not building buildings) in a wargame-ish environment... I don't know early wargames well at all so I couldn't say, but it would surprise me VERY much if said subgenre didn't exist from fairly early.

So the only similarities we have between Empire and Wars are:

-You can built units (although the way you do it is very different)
-You can move units
-You can capture bases (although the rules and manner in which you do so are different)
-You can shoot other units
-It's turn-based (although not completely)

What other games can I do this with? Since you think that Wars is just completely identical to Empire (enough so that they belong in the exact same subgenre), the following games cannot belong in seperate subgenres. According to your rules.

F-Zero and Gran Turismo:

-You race around a track
-You can earn money
-You can customize your vehicles
-You brake, accelerate, turn
-Ramming into other vehicles is important to winning

Pitfall and Super Mario Bros.:

-You run across a level
-You jump over stuff
-You get points for time
-You jump on enemies to kill them

Quake and Deus Ex:

-You run around in a first-person view
-You shoot people
-You strafe
-You can jump

I could go on forever, if you'd like.