We need the government to save us from ourselves :(

[Weltall]

Originally posted by alien space marine
[B]Not all poor people abuse the health care system,That is stereotyping and scape goating.
Should a pregnant woman be denied the right to have a safe birth at hospistal just because she doesnt have the proper insurance , Should a single mother be denied health care for her children because she can only work part time since she cant afford a babbysitter.

You misunderstood me. I said NON-EMERGENCY healthcare should not be free for anyone. I'm talking colds, flu, shit like that. They can go in there and get treatment for free for things like that when all they need is a fucking Sudafed tablet. Because they instead go to the doctor, it runs up a bill of hundreds of dollars.

But seriously, our local hospital, the Medical College of Virginia, one of the world's largest teaching hospitals, has lost literally millions of dollars because of abuse by uninsured patients. They labeled it as one of the main reasons they had to cut staff and eliminate beds, because these people were running up huge bills for stupid shit like stomach flu and heartburn or the big ones like ODs and drunkeness. It doesn't help that MCV is not in a great part of town.

Should a homeless person be left to die because he has no money?

Should a little boy in a middle class family by denied his life because his family cant afford the 150 thousand dollar transplant, that is not coverd by his dads insurance?

Absolutely not. But I think if a homeless person can't get a job and get some kind of medical insurance, they're a waste anyway. The unemployment rate in VA is under 4%, meaning you really have to either be such an asshole that you can't hold a job, or you have to basically WANT to be jobless.

You have a point about the little boy scenario, but there is usually a way they'll work with you on payments. It's really uncommon for a patient that needs life-saving treatment to be turned away, as it's against medical ethics to allow a patient to die.

Sure, a huge tax increase sure SOUNDS bad, but think of this: about 40% of a family's yearly income in Canada goes to taxes for welfare, health care etc. That is much larger as compared to the USA. But do you see hundreds of homeless bums running the streets of large, Canadian cities? No! But you see it in spades in the American ones! Too many homeless people in the USA, just because the greedy American, like you, does not want to support such helpful programs as welfare, and free health care. It closes the gap a LOT from the rich to poor, and makes a country a MUCH more pleasant place to live in. Do you honestly like seeing a drunken homeless person living in a box on the street because he couldn't afford the money for rent, and couldn't get any extra help to get him back on his feet? How much more greedy can you get??? Just letting a person die on the streets because you don't want to dip into your income to help out people like that. Makes no sense in my opinion.

And what the hell's wrong with me not wanting to share the money I make? I have to EARN my goddamn money! I have to bust my ass five days a week to get what money I get, and there's no reason whatsoever why I should be compelled to give it to people who don't want to get off their lazy asses and get a job like I do. Hell, I could be poor if I chose to. I could quit working and be a slob that siphons off the hard-working people in America, but I have enough dignity that I'm going to earn a living the honest way. I'm sorry, but I don't owe poor people anything, and I don't feel the slightest bit guilty that they don't have what I have because they don't work for it. We live in a society where you become only what you try to accomplish. If you don't have a work ethic, you're going to be poor, you deserve to be poor, and you won't get the damnedest drop of sympathy for me because I'm too busy earning a wage, and if they don't want to work and they want to be destitute, they don't deserve a single red cent from me or anyone else.

In America, you're only poor if you want to be. There are so many opportunities to achieve a higher standard of living that only those who won't try won't achieve it.

Acting for the better of the group makes a much better environment for everybody than acting for the better of yourselves. I'm not saying that I am a Communist, because I surely am not. But it is much more comforting to see a person on their feet and having a prosperous life than seeing him on the streets because of a few bad choices along the way.

Well, that's the consequence of a free society. No one said you're guaranteed a perfect life. You only get what you put into it. And I'm not particularly caring about helping groups of people because I don't make a whole lot myself. But I'm working at freaking Wal-Mart, which takes zero skills to do, and I make enough to live reasonably comfortable. No reason whatsoever why the homeless cannot do the same. In a society of free enterprise, you can suffer for poor decisions, but you also have the chance to capitalize and bring yourself out of it. People in America have gone from rags to riches before, even more from rags to comfort. Since our society places more emphasis on individual freedoms than anyone else, it also emphasizes indivdual responsibility. I find it FAR more comforting to see a person on their feet by the efforts of their hard work than I do because they recieve perpetual handouts.

Which raises another point. You say that if a person is going to do something stupid, you should just let him go do it without trying to stop him, because if he is going to something dumb he deserves the consequenses. Well, so something like homlessness doesn't become a problem, you should be doing things to try and prevent those mistakes and make up for them, should they happen. That way everybody is much more equal and the rich/poor gap is closed a lot.

But people AREN'T equal. Some people are more intelligent than others, some are smarter than others, and some are more industrious than others. Those people deserve to live better than others because of their talents, and they deserve to be rich as well. Being rich is not a bad thing by a long shot, and it does not oblige them to share their wealth. I sincerely believe that people should face the consequences of their actions because that's a factor of freedom: The freedom to try and the freedom to fail. Fear of failure sometimes discourages people from trying, sometimes it makes them try all the harder. But some people will fail, and should fail, because they are not worthy of success, for varied reasons. Maybe they can't get along with others at work, or they steal, or they're drug addicts or whatever. It is a problem, but it's up to the person with the problem to do something about it because no one else can, and no one else should. Sometimes people need help and they should get it, but they should not get a free ride because of it.

Free health care and welfare only add to a country, because it allows everybody to have a more equal lifestyle. Poor people need a roof over their head just as much as a rich person. And a poor person would need kimo therapy (should they ever get cancer) just as much as a rich person. A person's health shouldn't be determined by how much money they have in the bank.

One need only look at America to see that welfare is a massive failure and has detracted heavily from this country. It has created a group of people who believe they are entitled to handouts and that the world owes them a living. It's created a group of people who are leeches on society and will never strive to be anything but leeches. It has done a great job creating poverty and ruining the futures of many black people. Free health care would only compound the problem. Welfare states are failures. And again, I don't want everyone to have an equal lifestyle unless everyone is willing to work their asses off to get it. If people don't work, they deserve nothing. I do not believe anyone is entitled to comfort. I believe that if you do not want to contribute to society you have no right to benefit from it. When you tell people that they can have what I have without working from it, you are telling that person that there is no reason whatsoever to try and be an industrious human being because the government will give them what they want for nothing. Then you'll have half the people paying all their money supporting the other half who don't want to work, and then society collapses on itself.

America should do all it can to avoid becoming a welfare state, because doing so would effectively destroy our economy and ultimately society. All you need to do is look at the socialist fortresses of Europe to see how welfare has ruined their economies and, more slowly, their societies.

Health care.

First, America is not about to become a welfare state like Europe and Canada. It just won't happen, unfortunately. So what could happen? What should happen? What should happen is, somehow, get healthcare for everyone. It is tragic that 40 million Americans have no healthcare. Fourty MILLION! That's a lot! Sure, for the top 5 or 10% we have the best healthcare in the world. But for the people in the lower levels, we have the worst healthcare in the industrialized world.

40 million people don't have healthcare in America. 240 million people in America do have healthcare. The forty million that don't already essentially get it for free anyway.

You know, you're a college kid who probably lives off of grants, loans, or daddy's money, so where do you get off telling anyone what people should do with money they work to earn? Who gives you that right? Do you even work? At all?

And you want to make it WORSE by actually REVOKING healthcare from some of the few poor people who actually have any? Are you sane? As said already, its a false assumption that people like you have that poor people are stupid and lazy and waste money and the state's time. That is just false. Most of those people try but can't get anywhere... and have nowhere to turn when someone gets sick. As Fittisize said, what a great society THAT leads to.

People fail. Too bad, so sad. You can pick up the chips and try again, or you can give up. If they give up, they deserve what they get. I personally am sick and tired of getting so much money deducted from my paltry paychecks already to provide services to poor people that I myself do not get for free. I know you're a blind liberal because you most likely never worked a day in your life, but I find that extremely unfair to myself and everyone else who works for a living, who goes to school while working, sometimes two jobs, to make ends meet.

The simple fact is that most truly poor people are poor because they are either lack the intelligence or work ethic to achieve anything better, and frankly I see no reason to give them anything. Many of them don't even try to better themselves. I don't feel so bad about giving help to people who put serious effort into working or school, but the simple fact is that many poor people do not try hard, or at all, because they know that they'll still get their government check on the 15th of the month no matter how little effort they put in. You liberals have created a cancer in our society with your welfare state ideas. Someday you'll collectively admit what a failure it was, but it'll be too late then, because your goal of making everyone equally poor will be too greatly realized to reverse.

Next, what can we do? Well, somehow get healthcare to everyone. Every Democratic candidate for president supports this idea... sure, the costs for their plans are all over the map, but all have a plan.

And how much will it cost? Well, even the most expensive one (Gephardt's) doesn't require any new taxes. All it requires is to get rid of the Bush tax cuts. Thats it.

And for the less expensive plans other candidates have, all those require is getting rid of the part of the tax cuts that hasn't come into effect. Or just the part for the top 5%. Just that part alone would fund a large percentage of the program... and its not like that tax cut was needed anyway.

Wow, what a great idea. Hey Mr. Hardworking taxpayer, you have to give up more money out of your paycheck so that the boozers and druggies can get free healthcare. Doesn't that sound like a fabulous idea?

The point isn't how much it will cost, the point is that no one deserves healthcare for free. At a reduced cost? Maybe. But free? No. Too many free rides as it is.

Because its just not acceptible to allow the current situation, where millions have no health care and millions more have such a small amount of it that they can't cover much of anything when they get sick. We've got to do something! And ignore people with delusions that poor people are all evil money wasters like Weltall here.

Yeah, we've got to do something! We can start with removing welfare benefits for non-workers, and removing ALL benefits for illegal aliens. We can continue with removing all free non-emergency healthcare, which is the main reason insurance premiums are as high as they are already. We can ease some of the horridly high malpractice insurance costs for doctors. We can also encourage more competition in the insurance field. And best of all, we can encourage everyone to get a job and contribute to society, and leave behind everyone who refuses. Healthcare should not be a charity.

If free healthcare is given AT ALL, it should only be on a strictly temporary basis and have strong limitations as to what services can be free, so as to coerce the person to get themselves in their societal niche, stop leeching and start contributing, to start repaying the debt that the poor people owe the taxpayers.

It's called tough love, sweetheart. No work, no food, no healthcare. Only that way can people have a reason to pursue wealth.