9th July 2020, 6:45 PM
On the subject of Confederates, what you're missing is, again, what those statues exist for. They do not really memorialize the Confederacy. They were put there in the early 20th century to remind black people of their place, and to tell whites how much better they are. It doesn't matter that many Confederate soldiers didn't own slaves, they were fighting for the right of people TO own slaves. That was their cause in its totality: for the right to own people. "State's rights", both before the Civil War and after, was a cover used to hide what they actually meant, they wanted to keep the right of their states to oppress minorities.The pre-war Southerners were very clear about what they were fighting for, though, their right to own black people.
Why should statues which exclusively exist to denigrate people and remind them that they are inferior to whites -- EXPLICITLY remind them of this, not in some abstract way -- stay up? Why should statues funded by neo-Confederate groups and the KKK and such be left in place? There is no reason to do so. Nobody is going to forget history because a few statues that advocate for discrimination are taken down. What you will get, however, is a slightly more equal nation.
Also, why should we continue to memorialize traitors who wanted to destroy America? We should not. I don't see Benedict Arnold statues in every town center, why should we have Robert E. Lee ones all over the South? We should not.
And again, as for Teddy Roosevelt, it's not about TR there, it's about the two other people in that sculpture, the incredibly stereotyped minority people to his left and right behind him. Look at an image of that statue, it's kind of crazy that it's been in a public place so long!
As for your other fairly specious examples, again, there is a huge difference between being a member of the ruling group and not being in it. Of course there are racist black people out there, but since minorities don't have the power as a group to turn that into the kind of oppression they face, that doesn't matter anywhere near as much as racist whites do. Power matters.
For one of many examples, when you or I get stopped by the police for a headlight out, or for minor speeding, or what have you, I'm sure you have no fear of the police. What would there be to be afraid of? It'll surely be a short converation with, at worst, a ticket. I've never gotten a ticket that way but it's hardly a dangerous situation... unless you're a minority, in which case if you make any kind of move the officer interprets as threatening they'll kill you. This is what the George Floyd protests are about, how our institutional racism, that automatic fear and distrust of nonwhite faces that most people in this nation have to some extent but some have more than others, leads to the unnecessary murders of many minority people in situations where a white person would have been fine because the officer would not have used violence against a white like they would a minority. For a black person every traffic stop is a life-threatening situation in a way that simply is not for me.
Yes, some on the far left do dislike America, but I think they are wrong, and also are dangerously misinformed if they think thjat America retreating from the world would bring any good! Handing the world over to the autocrats in Russia and China would do incalculable harm to this planet. America is still important and needed, and we need to get back to BEING that nation, which we can't do while the current occupant of the White House is there.
The point here is to make America even better, to bring us closer to our highest ideals. The founding ideals of America are, effectively, the core ideas behind the modern world. "All men are created equal" is perhaps the most important written sentence of the last five hundred years, but it has always been an aspirational sentence and not a factual one. The struggle to bring this nation closer to realizing that ideal is shown with movements like Black Lives Matter, as we slowly get closer to actually meaning the ALL in that sentence. America has come a long way and has been, at its best, the "city on the hill", but at its worst it has been a horrible place to be, particularly for minorities, and that is something which finally needs to change. And it is changing.
Why should statues which exclusively exist to denigrate people and remind them that they are inferior to whites -- EXPLICITLY remind them of this, not in some abstract way -- stay up? Why should statues funded by neo-Confederate groups and the KKK and such be left in place? There is no reason to do so. Nobody is going to forget history because a few statues that advocate for discrimination are taken down. What you will get, however, is a slightly more equal nation.
Also, why should we continue to memorialize traitors who wanted to destroy America? We should not. I don't see Benedict Arnold statues in every town center, why should we have Robert E. Lee ones all over the South? We should not.
And again, as for Teddy Roosevelt, it's not about TR there, it's about the two other people in that sculpture, the incredibly stereotyped minority people to his left and right behind him. Look at an image of that statue, it's kind of crazy that it's been in a public place so long!
Quote: General! Are you not also eliminating nuance from your arguments by making clean-cut, absolutist, black and white (no pun intended) arguments and findings of morality? You make it seem as if all white people are inherently racist, and all non-white people are victims. Not that it really matters, but do you know for a fact that no minority has ever dressed as a white person to be offensive/mean-spirited, in human history? Pray tell, whence your gift of clairvoyance?There is a very, very dramatic difference between being a member of the group in power, and not being a member of that group.
Quote:Furthermore, are you saying that everyone who ever donned black face makeup was consciously out on a mission to “dehumanize” anybody? Or was it just not that big of a deal back then? If a black man said “I hate all white people” and put on faux white face paint, and mocked you and your family, would you laugh and high five him, or would you denounce him? I suspect that some of you folks far, far to the left of Goron City would congratulate him and paint murals of him on the nearest building you come across.That people actually thought that that wasn't a big deal is one of many examples of how bad racism is in this nation and how far we have to go. Blackface was always offensive and people should have known that. And as we have seen, how someone responds to being outed as using blackface in the past matters -- people who are contrite about it and apologize sincerely seem to be at least somewhat forgiven. I am thinking of Justin Trudeau and Ralph Northam here, offhand. They really shouldn't have done it, though. Just because being racist "wasn't a big deal" doesn't mean being racist wasn't wrong.
As for your other fairly specious examples, again, there is a huge difference between being a member of the ruling group and not being in it. Of course there are racist black people out there, but since minorities don't have the power as a group to turn that into the kind of oppression they face, that doesn't matter anywhere near as much as racist whites do. Power matters.
Quote: What "white control" here, today, in 2020, prevents a black/chinese/goron from doing whatever he wants to do in life? What prevents a black teenager from going to college and getting a good career? Is it "whitey" keeping him down? I just don't see it. I worked my way through college, working fulltime so that I paid it as I went and graduated with no debt. I didn't get a free ride. How is it diffeent from anybody else? Perhaps in some deeply southern places, Alabama or Mississippi or wherever---I live in Massachusetts... ::ahem::, I mean I live in Goron City... perhaps in those racist states, I could entertain the belief where it might be harder for a black person to get ahead---but not in the majority of the country.Minorities do not get the kinds of opportunities that us white people do. They have to face a society which automatically judges them negatively based on their skin color. Do you really not understand that? I'm sure you had to work hard, but minorities start with a major societal disadvantage that simply does not exist for white people. There is vast amounts out there about what racism is and how it affects people -- how having a black name makes employers less likely to consider a resume even if every other detail on the resume is identical, how minorities are more likely to grow up in poorer neighborhoods with fewer options for advancement (the legacy of slavery has not left this nation!), etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
For one of many examples, when you or I get stopped by the police for a headlight out, or for minor speeding, or what have you, I'm sure you have no fear of the police. What would there be to be afraid of? It'll surely be a short converation with, at worst, a ticket. I've never gotten a ticket that way but it's hardly a dangerous situation... unless you're a minority, in which case if you make any kind of move the officer interprets as threatening they'll kill you. This is what the George Floyd protests are about, how our institutional racism, that automatic fear and distrust of nonwhite faces that most people in this nation have to some extent but some have more than others, leads to the unnecessary murders of many minority people in situations where a white person would have been fine because the officer would not have used violence against a white like they would a minority. For a black person every traffic stop is a life-threatening situation in a way that simply is not for me.
Quote: No good at all came out of America between 1918-2016 Weltall? Leading the Allies through two World Wars, landing on the moon, all the art and literature that has been produced, ushering in the internet, etc.? The left selectively finds the worst in America, to help flush out your narrative that we are evil and need you to redesign the future for us… and to be sure the right does the same, skipping the bad and only finding the good… I am trying to stand in the middle and direct the traffic as these opposite forces clash. I say that NEITHER SIDE IS 100% right and America is NOT an evil country! I choose to side with whoever sees the good in my country. That always tends to be the conservatives. You never hear a liberal say anything good or positive about the United States E-V-E-R. I am wearing my conservative hat today because of that. Tomorrow I will wear my liberal hat when we rail about some other topic.Of course a lot of good has come out of America! Absolutely! I love this nation, it is the greatest nation to ever exist. Freedom, democracy, free and fair elections... we are truly privileged to live in the nation which pretty much invented all of those things, and which has had peaceful transfers of power, consistently, ever since the American Revolution centuries ago. America is a special place which has done more good for the world in the last few centuries than anyone else during that time. Nobody here is saying otherwise.
Yes, some on the far left do dislike America, but I think they are wrong, and also are dangerously misinformed if they think thjat America retreating from the world would bring any good! Handing the world over to the autocrats in Russia and China would do incalculable harm to this planet. America is still important and needed, and we need to get back to BEING that nation, which we can't do while the current occupant of the White House is there.
The point here is to make America even better, to bring us closer to our highest ideals. The founding ideals of America are, effectively, the core ideas behind the modern world. "All men are created equal" is perhaps the most important written sentence of the last five hundred years, but it has always been an aspirational sentence and not a factual one. The struggle to bring this nation closer to realizing that ideal is shown with movements like Black Lives Matter, as we slowly get closer to actually meaning the ALL in that sentence. America has come a long way and has been, at its best, the "city on the hill", but at its worst it has been a horrible place to be, particularly for minorities, and that is something which finally needs to change. And it is changing.