23rd July 2015, 11:16 PM
Weltall Wrote:Yeah? You grow your own food? Make your own clothes? Construct your own vehicles? Provide your own education?
Of course not. And, you think that because you paid some money for these things, that the efforts of the countless people who had to deliver all these things to you somehow do not contribute to whatever success you have achieved. You are nothing on your own. You are just one grain of sand. You've had the good fortune to have (presumably) a good job, and the physical and mental health to allow you to do it.
Your successes are the result of many people's work, plus a lack of disastrous bad luck.
Libertarians want a minimized government that 'can't interfere with the freedom to conduct commerce'. Which is only going to make sure that the wealthiest people won't need to worry about bribing government. They will, essentially if not literally, be the government. It's pretty much where we are right now.
I can't discuss the finer points of labor with someone who seems to know virtually nothing about it. The man, himself, is worth about $300,000 and the vast majority of his campaign funds come from personal, small donations.
Lack of government = death and starvation for anyone who lacks the means to provide for themselves, or defend themselves. It has always been true.
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You make this insane assumption that people who don't fend for themselves do so by choice. And you make that assumption because you have to. The entire fundament of libertarianism rests upon the assumption that everybody is fully capable and the losers are losers entirely by choice. There isn't enough time in the day to explain all of the nuance of this reality, but it wouldn't matter. You're an entitled individual who has clearly never faced any real hardship. Or, you have, and you've made it out for reasons entirely different from what you believe they are.
They build to the point that libertarianism is an unrealistic, childish and psychopathic fantasy that seems to be really popular only by people who would benefit from it.
Well, dang: I had several replies with examples to different parts of your post, but when I clicked Preview it said my login was timed out. I swear it couldn't have gone more than 2 minutes without typing or scrolling back to the conversation....
My general points were that many of your sentences are not arguments, but either: 1) insults to myself and humanity (telling me who I am: entitled, and ignorant of my lack of achievement / telling me what people as a whole are: unable to accomplish anything on their own, grains of salt) or 2) wordier versions of "that's stupid" "this is always true" "you know nothing about labor". I haven't made any claims in that style.
In brief response to your arguments:
1. I don't take credit for the food I eat, car I drive, clothes I wear. The people that produced them should. I take credit for things like my physical health, the grades I got, the award I won at work a year ago.
2. People are currently dying and starving in our world of governments. People have been dying and starving over the 100+ years of the U.S. government anti-poverty acts. Now this "is always true."
3. Death and starvation from lack of care is a fact of nature. Your logic with the = symbol is that the government cures the death and starvation of those that don't take care of themselves.
4. Your graphic of Bernie Sanders' donations is a list of large & wealthy entities that are corporations in everything, but name. I eyeball about 85% of it coming from the PAC column, rather than the individual donation column. I also find a $300k net worth to be a lot of money. Per this http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_103815.html, that puts him in the top 10%.
5.I never said all people that don't fend for themselves by choice. I do believe that some people don't fend for themselves by choice, aka lazy people. Now, I'm not gonna tell you what you think or who you are: so please clarify for me if you agree/disagree that 1) there are no lazy people and/or 2) zero of the "losers" (your term, not mine) brought it upon themselves.
Your sentences that did present some type argument all promote an external locust of control. I learned in Psychology 101 that an external locust of control correlates to unhealthiness?
Are you able to give yourself credit for anything in your life?