24th March 2010, 1:44 PM
"That vote said that they could, but not that they would, and wasn't a declaration of war..."
Declarations of war don't exist in the 21st century. You know this to be true. They're not PC.
I mean, the Democrats should not have voted for that bill. It was incredibly stupid that they did; if people like me could see that the Republicans were lying to them, why in the world were they so stupid that they believed them? And yet somehow many Democrats did... only later to admit that yes, they were lied to and deceived. They should definitely have known better, but they trusted that when dealing with such an important issue they'd be told the truth, because that's how it works in the Congress. That didn't happen.
If you honestly believe that Bush intentionally deceived congree in order to start a war, what was his reason? I agree that he probably did want to go to war... he may be a bellicose person in some ways... but I think that he honestly believed there to be a casus belli.
That is, America sets off a civil war in Iraq which devastates the country and, combined with the constant American military actions that frequently kill civilians as well as insurgents, kill perhaps as much as hundreds of thousands of Iraqis over the course of the war. That civil war would not have happened if we hadn't invaded. We should have seen it coming, but the neocons were too blind to see the obvious.
Civil War? Pray inform me further. I know there are regional stressors, as there are in many countries were more than one ethnicity are heaped together, but I don't know that it has gone to that level.
Not really. Most crimes perpetuated by foreign troops, or by mercenaries such as Blackwater, are never prosecuted. For a long time mercenaries and troops pretty much had free rein. In a few rare cases there was actually a prosecution, but those were very uncommon; most murders, random killings of "suspected insurgents", etc. happened with no consequences for the perpetrators.
There is always colateral damage in war, but it is my understanding that the guilty parties are held culpable. If you believe otherwise, prove it here with substantive documentation.
That often happens during war, sure, but still, we should have higher standards than that...
Agreed.
Actual American objectives: Secure Mideast oil for the US.
Yea, I know... because, we all know that the mideast oil fields have been seized and nationalized by the US government, and that's why gas is so cheap right now. I gotta give you that one.
Set up a friendly government in the Middle East, so that we can get more Mideast oil without dealing with unfriendly dictatorships.
I see a stable, democratic government, you see a compliant one for oil. I say tomato, you say sodomy. But, you still maintain that tired old leftist routine about oil. So, we have the oil now, right? Where is it? Why is gas so expensive?
Kill Sadaam Hussein because daddy failed to back in 1991, despite that he hasn't actually been a real threat in years. Follow the Neocon plans to overthrow and kill Sadaam that they had been working on since 1991. Boost ratings at home for greater success in the coming (2004) elections. Start the new crusade and take down one of the Axis of Evil!
That wasn't the reason for going to war at all, that's a leftist conspiracy theory on par with the Birthers on the right.
WMDs were irrelevant really, they were just the excuse used to try to sell the invasion to the world because the Neocons thought that that was the excuse that'd be more likely to be accurate... but of course even that wasn't.
The threat of WMDs is a very real one. It appeared real at the time. It's reason enough. Global stability is an issue that all nations have to deal with. You again unfairly give the burden to "Neocons" when congress passed it, and we have numerous international support. You are telling me that Bush hoodwinked the entire world, and all of congress? Either he did or didn't, I feel he didn't, but if he did, then he's the smartest and most capable charlatan in the world to have been able to carry the entire world in his pocket, wouldn't you agree? Yet, the cliche of his is a bumbling bumpkin. Which was is it? Master deceiver or bumbling moron? Naturally you'll say both, but the two versions are incompatible.
It does seem that they were planning on being out within a year, and didn't see pretty much any of the things that happened after we took over Iraq coming, but that's just evidence of how horrible their planning job was and their incompetence, not of their original goals... though the fact that their plans were seriously flawed and lacking in much connection to reality certainly is something important to understand when you look at it all.
For clarification, who is the 'They' to which you refer? Did all their fascist neocon boogey men get together and draft out the strategy for the war one night?
Helping to show how lacking the reasons for war actually were, and how obviously illegal the invasion was under international law...
An unstable despot who has WMDs is reason enough to go to war. Which is why I endorse Obama's Iranian sanctions, though I'm not quite sure it goes far enough.
Declarations of war don't exist in the 21st century. You know this to be true. They're not PC.
I mean, the Democrats should not have voted for that bill. It was incredibly stupid that they did; if people like me could see that the Republicans were lying to them, why in the world were they so stupid that they believed them? And yet somehow many Democrats did... only later to admit that yes, they were lied to and deceived. They should definitely have known better, but they trusted that when dealing with such an important issue they'd be told the truth, because that's how it works in the Congress. That didn't happen.
If you honestly believe that Bush intentionally deceived congree in order to start a war, what was his reason? I agree that he probably did want to go to war... he may be a bellicose person in some ways... but I think that he honestly believed there to be a casus belli.
That is, America sets off a civil war in Iraq which devastates the country and, combined with the constant American military actions that frequently kill civilians as well as insurgents, kill perhaps as much as hundreds of thousands of Iraqis over the course of the war. That civil war would not have happened if we hadn't invaded. We should have seen it coming, but the neocons were too blind to see the obvious.
Civil War? Pray inform me further. I know there are regional stressors, as there are in many countries were more than one ethnicity are heaped together, but I don't know that it has gone to that level.
Not really. Most crimes perpetuated by foreign troops, or by mercenaries such as Blackwater, are never prosecuted. For a long time mercenaries and troops pretty much had free rein. In a few rare cases there was actually a prosecution, but those were very uncommon; most murders, random killings of "suspected insurgents", etc. happened with no consequences for the perpetrators.
There is always colateral damage in war, but it is my understanding that the guilty parties are held culpable. If you believe otherwise, prove it here with substantive documentation.
That often happens during war, sure, but still, we should have higher standards than that...
Agreed.
Actual American objectives: Secure Mideast oil for the US.
Yea, I know... because, we all know that the mideast oil fields have been seized and nationalized by the US government, and that's why gas is so cheap right now. I gotta give you that one.
Set up a friendly government in the Middle East, so that we can get more Mideast oil without dealing with unfriendly dictatorships.
I see a stable, democratic government, you see a compliant one for oil. I say tomato, you say sodomy. But, you still maintain that tired old leftist routine about oil. So, we have the oil now, right? Where is it? Why is gas so expensive?
Kill Sadaam Hussein because daddy failed to back in 1991, despite that he hasn't actually been a real threat in years. Follow the Neocon plans to overthrow and kill Sadaam that they had been working on since 1991. Boost ratings at home for greater success in the coming (2004) elections. Start the new crusade and take down one of the Axis of Evil!
That wasn't the reason for going to war at all, that's a leftist conspiracy theory on par with the Birthers on the right.
WMDs were irrelevant really, they were just the excuse used to try to sell the invasion to the world because the Neocons thought that that was the excuse that'd be more likely to be accurate... but of course even that wasn't.
The threat of WMDs is a very real one. It appeared real at the time. It's reason enough. Global stability is an issue that all nations have to deal with. You again unfairly give the burden to "Neocons" when congress passed it, and we have numerous international support. You are telling me that Bush hoodwinked the entire world, and all of congress? Either he did or didn't, I feel he didn't, but if he did, then he's the smartest and most capable charlatan in the world to have been able to carry the entire world in his pocket, wouldn't you agree? Yet, the cliche of his is a bumbling bumpkin. Which was is it? Master deceiver or bumbling moron? Naturally you'll say both, but the two versions are incompatible.
It does seem that they were planning on being out within a year, and didn't see pretty much any of the things that happened after we took over Iraq coming, but that's just evidence of how horrible their planning job was and their incompetence, not of their original goals... though the fact that their plans were seriously flawed and lacking in much connection to reality certainly is something important to understand when you look at it all.
For clarification, who is the 'They' to which you refer? Did all their fascist neocon boogey men get together and draft out the strategy for the war one night?
Helping to show how lacking the reasons for war actually were, and how obviously illegal the invasion was under international law...
An unstable despot who has WMDs is reason enough to go to war. Which is why I endorse Obama's Iranian sanctions, though I'm not quite sure it goes far enough.
H.R.M. DARVNIVS MAXIMVS EX TENEBRIS EXIT REX DEVSQVE GORONORVMQVE TENDORVM ROMANORVM ET GRÆCORVM OMNIS SEMPER EST