A Cigar is a cigar... unless it's a penis.

[lazyfatbum]

I'm not sure how much of what we caught is the same, but I never got any impressions of incest and sexuality. Which episodes have moments that imply this? What's shown?

ahem. "Helloooooooo! Dear brother! What have you got there!? (Nothing... nothing! You only see AIR!) Dont be silly - I love you very much! *touch* *breaks* ....I guess I shouldn't touch." Not to mention episodes where Mandark would be in love with Dee-Dee and Dexter would try to understand and see Dee-Dee as an attractive person (which would disgust him), several episodes have Dexter using Dee-Dee in his 'experiments' and then feeling bad afterwards or realizing the consequences of it (then have to rescue her and apologize), learning that its family and not just some girl that lives with you. These are all principals taught to siblings especially in therapy when the siblings start to experiment on each other sexually.

I agree with some of what you've written here. To get one thing straight, though, does passive subtextual storytelling includes both biblical themes and personal experiences, yes? When I first read this, I was confused, and thought you were implying that all stories in this category had biblical roots.

Yes, but its not limited to the bible or personal experiences, it can be a retelling of any particular instance even a different story (like star wars using 7 samurai, etc). I was saying that using bible stories is usually where story tellers go first to base the passive hidden meaning because, well... can you name any other source that's been around that long or that popular? :D

I think what you're saying is insightful and applies to many stories, but insisting that all stories can be categorized into two subgroups is a pitfall. How do you categorize something that's completely irrelevant? Where do the stories (as random and assanine as they are) of something like Aqua Teen Hunger Force fit into all this?

I was saying two categories of serious story telling, not grouping everything together in those categories. There are movies/books etc released all the time that dont fit in to those two categories at all but more often than not are not serious. On the other hand, cheap romance novels will still contain hidden meanings for the reader (usually a woman) where the main character (also a woman) has to deal with day to day life that becomes directly translated to real-life -> alot of moms find it hard to feel attractive or sexy, the main character in the story cant afford makeup and lives by the docks with her father, always a mess and smells like fish... but lo and behold the handsom male from 'over seas' who has money and power causes her to steal dad's money and buy make up and nice dresses so the over seas hunk will like her ets tells her she's the most beautiful girl he's ever seen, she lies and says she's an aristocrat and then suddenly he and the young strapping dock boy who's loved her for years as she is (secretly) get in an argument over her and she always wanted love but now its too much for her, etc. Same thing with soap operas. Its cheap story telling but its based on what women want now and whatever they have to deal with getting in the way. Even Aqua Teen had a few episodes of hidden meaning on a simple scale for purposes of humor. South Park is generally the best at that though.

How does this fit in with "event in history (birth of America) or a thought process that's generally well known (religion) and study it to a degree that actually allows them to philosophize and educate others but in a hidden way so as to not come across as a soap box preacher and allow the viewer to gain their own insight and opinion from it"?

It most likely does not, most writers dont take things to levels a serious story teller would and they're hidden meanings are subconscious at best - characters fighting mom and dad avatars, characters that have been in prison or murdered people years ago but really have 'good hearts' and here's the story of how they got that good heart, etc. These are writers telling personal experiences in to the characters and story. You can tell the difference between the hidden meanings on purpose and the ones done out of subconscious need of the writer because the latter is disjointed and doesnt sell its context very well - its not a fluid story hidden beneath the main story and just flashes up now and again. While the serious story has two (or more) distinct stories happening at the same time, one being hidden.

Are we watching the same ads? I just don't see how this can be the case. And there must be some degree of customer satisfaction with iPods and drinks. We're not so blind as to continue to do something we know is unpleasant and unnecessary because it's socially acceptable.

Mountain Dew tastes like neon horse urine and people buy it in droves because its socially accepted as a popular high caffeine drink (losing ground now to energy drinks), hey we're gonna be up all night on this thing pick up some snacks and mountain dew, but in every taste test around the country when people drank Mountain dew without being told what it was it was nearly disgusting to them. No one needs an mp3 player but apple will tell you that your life without one is practically boring, in fact an ipod can ADD to the quality of your life and effectively make your life better. Why? Well lets watch these socially acceptable people who've been professionally trained to dance (in silhouette). Look at how much fun they're having, how much better life is, because they're featureless you can just, right now, imagine yourself being that person, having that fun, do it now. Viewer will ask themselves "well I do d/l music.... but do I really want an mp3 player?" and whoosh, their fate is sealed. When they arrive in the store and get the 30 dollar 512 MB player within 6 months they'll be deciding on if they want the white or the cherry red ipod because Chris (classic white with the Pantera skin) and Jane (hot pink) and Terrance (dark purple) in accounting have them and god dammit they have fun with life but can i afford one? i'll save up! *insert feeling of being in a club* Smoking tastes horrible, it makes you feel dirty physically, it makes your breath nasty and yet everyone who started did so to be accepted socially - everyone hates anyone who spends too much time watching TV and yet we all find ourselves glued to it for whatever show it is that we like (which was built by demographics and particular audience so it was just a matter of time before you started liking the show) and so on and so on. If it has some bearing on allowing you to be a part of society in a particular category that generates a sense of ID you will do it, even if its stupid, uncomfortable, tastes bad, or is immorally expensive. You cant escape its grip. Of course there's a trust factor; Microsoft tells you the XBox 360 is the future of video games and just look at how those non-geek neat ppl Jump In to the fun and hey, only cool people watch TRL and look, they're playing 360 so damn, I should think about getting one. *it breaks, they all break, its even on the news that all of them are breaking, your father who never knows anything about video games and cant tell a Mario from a Sonic tells YOU 'hey that new xbox breaks alot' and now the little club you joined of 360 owners, friends at school/work the neat ppl on MTV all feel jipped and stupod and whoosh, sales are down.

But the reasoning behind commercials and ads being a big window in to showcasing hidden meanings and actively (subconsciously) selling you the idea or concept is that they're designed the same way as serious films and books. A movie like 2001 wants to teach you the principals of understanding God and reality but never mentions God, keeps it as a secret story behind its curtains for the viewer to uncover and possibly be affected by it subconsciously, its been designed to cause that. Well made commercials spend millions doing the same thing - in a 60 second spot you just see some action taking place and then hey try Mentos. But subconsciously the words used in the song "Nothing gets to you, staying fresh staying cool" oh and hey he has friends, he has fun, he's even looked up to. You may even find yourself humming or whistling the song while you're out when you want to stay cool or when you feel like nothing can get to you or when things are getting to you and you need to keep your cool (like going to a job interview). your mind has coupled the images and sounds with the emotion and hopefully (for the company) you've coupled that emotion to the product so you associate the emotion with eating the mints. heavy story telling relies on the same principals. What are you doing, Dave? You've always been the caretaker. Me so horny, etc these are words, images and etc that specifically try to associate themselves with particular emotions and cause a subconscious (and then conscious) response.

I sorry for being confusing :D its kinda complicated.