Who has da Splintered Cell 3'd?

[Dark Jaguar]

Apparently, I do now.

Chaos Theory is totally sitting on my bed, right over there wait a sec...

Stupid cat, always sitting ON all my stuff, like he's trying to steal it... I should make a comic strip about how cats do weird things like that... I think I would call it "The cat that is fat". Catchy isn't it?

[OB1]

I think I'll get it someday.

[Dark Jaguar]

Nuts, one of the only people here with Live and he's all "yeah, I might get it some day". Great, NOW who's throat am I going to cut before they realize what just happened?

[OB1]

My Live account expired.

[Dark Jaguar]

That would explain a few things, like how you are never ons.

[EdenMaster]

Meh, not a Splinter Cell fan. Give me Solid Snake over Sam Fisher any day.

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah, well they could both kick Raiden's arse.

Anyway, I'm liking the game so far. Really, online coop is simply awesome.

Fact is, there has yet to be an Ubisoft game I've played that I didn't like. Well, okay I was left disappointed with Warrior Within, but I only played the demo, that might not suck SO bad if I play it wanting a nice battle system.

[A Black Falcon]

I played the GC demo of the first game, don't know if I'd want to buy it. Especially given that I never even got around to finishing the demo level...

[EdenMaster]

Yeah, well they could both kick Raiden's arse.

Note that I said Solid Snake, not just Metal Gear in general ;). Princess Peach could kick Raiden's pansy ass :D

[A Black Falcon]

Raiden and Snake, skills-wise, are essentially identical... at least in the game... maybe it's because I didn't play MGS1, but I have no idea why people cared so much about that.

[EdenMaster]

Raiden and Snake, skills-wise, are essentially identical... at least in the game...

Skills, yeah. Because technically, Snake and Raiden have one key thing in common: They're both controlled by you. Snake has hardened battle experience, while Raiden has only trained in a VR simulation. Besides that (quite large) distinction, yeah, they're of equal skill.

The difference is, you never saw Snake whine about his life with Meryl for 20 minutes over the Codec. You never saw someone grab Snakes crotch to verify that he was a man. You never saw Snake running around naked covering up his junk (that's a very good thing). Yeah, they have equal skills, but as far as characters popularity is concerned, everybody hates Raiden.

Metal Gear is about Solid Snake. That's part of the reason why the games do so well. Snake is one of the all-time greatest video game characters ever created, if you ask me, and I would say many would agree with me. Not only does he has exceptional skills and near-superhuman ability, the games show that he is still a flawed human being with his own shortcomings and imperfections. People connect with Snake, empathize, and even care for him while playing. That is a rare feat for a mere videogame character. So when MGS2 came out and we got one hour of playtime with Snake, and the rest of the game we had to play as a whiny bleach-blonde sissy, the response was less than stellar.

Play MGS: The Twin Snakes, and try to tell me at the end that you like Raiden better than Snake.

[A Black Falcon]

I didn't say I liked Raiden more than Snake, I said I didn't have a problem with them switching... sometimes a story is better told from a less-experienced-character perspective.

[EdenMaster]

The story was phenomenal. I don't know how much of MGS2 you played, but Snake still played a very active NPC role after the game switched to Raiden. The story wasn't the problem, the game, not in the least. People love Solid Snake, and after waiting years and years for a new Metal Gear, they find out that they don't even get to control Snake for 90% of the game. That's what spawned the great resentment toward Raiden.

Change can be good in a video game series, but sometimes a fresh coat of paint and a new story is all the gamers really want. Especially from such a storied and beloved series as Metal Gear. What if in the upcoming Zelda, we only get to control Link for the first hour of the game, and then the rest of the game is played as Tingle or someone. People want what they like, and what they like is what they know. Keep feeding them that, and they'll keep lining up to buy it.

[Sacred Jellybean]

Stupid cat, always sitting ON all my stuff, like he's trying to steal it... I should make a comic strip about how cats do weird things like that... I think I would call it "The cat that is fat". Catchy isn't it?

<img src="http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~djc46/lickbutt1.jpg">
<img src="http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~djc46/lickbutt2.jpg">
<img src="http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~djc46/heywtf.jpg">
"Hey wtf are yoo doing withat camera?"

[A Black Falcon]

The story was phenomenal. I don't know how much of MGS2 you played, but Snake still played a very active NPC role after the game switched to Raiden. The story wasn't the problem, the game, not in the least. People love Solid Snake, and after waiting years and years for a new Metal Gear, they find out that they don't even get to control Snake for 90% of the game. That's what spawned the great resentment toward Raiden.

Change can be good in a video game series, but sometimes a fresh coat of paint and a new story is all the gamers really want. Especially from such a storied and beloved series as Metal Gear. What if in the upcoming Zelda, we only get to control Link for the first hour of the game, and then the rest of the game is played as Tingle or someone. People want what they like, and what they like is what they know. Keep feeding them that, and they'll keep lining up to buy it.

If the story isn't the problem, then I don't get it, as they are only different in the story... sure, you get attached to one character and don't like them replaced with a 'worse' one. But if it's the best way to tell your story -- and Kojima thought it was for that game -- what's so horrible about it?

Tingle? I don't think having to play as Tingle would compare... that'd be much, much, worse... :) Yes, you're right that 'more of the same' is what people want. But what if it's not what the developer wants to make, and they have the cachet to get their publisher to publish said game?

[EdenMaster]

Games aren't just about telling a good story. While it is important, being able to connect with a character you can empathize with and truly care for is a large part of a game. That's what character development is for.

Snake and Raiden are two completely different characters when it comes to just about everything but skill. It really is difficult to explain when you've had so little experience with the Metal Gear series.

People buy sequels because they enjoyed the first game. The main character is one of the big features that make up a game, and in Metal Gear's case, Solid Snake is a great hero. Maybe it's because he's a bad ass. Maybe it's David Hayter's deep, grating voice. Maybe it's his personality and flaws. Whatever the reason, people love Snake, and wanted more of him, and that isn't what they got, so that's why Raiden is so hated. Not only that, but he is so <i>unlike</i> Snake that it didn't feel like Metal Gear at all, to me anyway. That is how ingrained Snake is to the series. Remove him from the lead role, and you can still make a good game, but there will always be that certain something missing.

[A Black Falcon]

But the gameplay is exactly the same... eh, whatever. The only problem I can think of is that Snake is one of the rare game characters who isn't the 'new person who knows nothing', he's a 'person who's good at his job and has been doing it for a while'. Raiden is the typical one... but that's the typical type because it's easier (and often more effective) to tell a story from the point of view of someone who knows nothing than from the point of view of someone who is a professional.

[EdenMaster]

As I said, gameplay may be the same but that's just one piece of a very intricate puzzle. You need more than good gameplay, and a recognizable and well-liked character like Solid Snake is a very important and welcome feature. Just like Link in my above example. It doesn't matter how good the game is, if you don't get to be Link, the game won't be as successful. Series that bond so closely with their main characters like Metal Gear and Legend of Zelda shouldn't mess with the characters, otherwise, hatred such as this for the newcomer will arise.

If you play MGS3, you'll see that while Snake is the main character and he is just as awesome as he was MGS1, there is plenty that he doesn't know about what's going on, and thus, neither does the player, allowing you experience the story unfolding just as Snake does.

[Dark Jaguar]

Hey EM, the thing about Raiden is he is a character designed to represent the masses of humanity waiting to be controlled. He IS you, me, lazy, and everyone else here! When you get annoyed at his whining or whatever else he does, you are getting annoyed at that part of yourself. THAT'S what I got from the game anyway. In that sense, I found Raiden to be an excellently crafted character.

[Private Hudson]

Right..

So next time I get angry at my girlfriend for whining too much, I should stop and think. Hey, I'm only angry at her whining because I'm angry at that part of myself!

;)

And Raiden had a shedload of battle experience outside of VR. Sure he was about 6 years old, but you have to be a damned tough 6 year old to fire an AK47 accurately and kill people!!

And, eh.. Link isn't exactly the greatest example to use of having to have a good main character. Considering he's nothing more than an avatar. Raiden as a character was absolutely INTEGRAL to MGS2's storyline. From the point you made about MGS3 (having a person with no experience and not knowing what's going on) to the point DJ made (being a representation of yourself), he was just beautiful. The blonde locks weren't bad either. ;) Think about this.. how would YOU react to the situation he was in? Would you be "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON HERE!?", or would you be "It's time to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of gum!". Sure you would WANT to be the latter, but that's not necessarily good storytelling. Raiden's character is what helped you suspend your disbelief amidst the craziest damn videgame storyline ever. And apart from the fact that you would need to play as him simply to make the storyline WORK, it was just the best alround choice to make as the main protagonist.

And if you love Snake so much, he's still the main character in the game, and you still get to witness him kick muchos ass anyway.

[OB1]

DJ is absolutely right, Raiden is supposed to be US, the whiny gamer populace. It was a stroke of genius on Kojima's part to pull that stunt. MGS2 would be have been a very different (and IMO, lesser) game without Raiden.

And DJ, when I had Live you refused to get on, and when you did you put on that stupid voice mask. That didn't exactly get me excited about playing with you again.

[A Black Falcon]

As I said, it's easier to tell a story from the point of view of the new character onto the scene than it is from the point of view of the veteran... but it does get a bit old when almost everything has that storyline. Especially in fantasy... when's the last time the main character in a fantasy game WASN'T either a farmboy or some other kind of innocent-person-drawn-into-great-events? Yes, that character has more of a sense of being 'average person', but really... do we need almost EVERY game to work that way? :)

[Great Rumbler]

Solid Snake > Raiden

That's all there is to it really.

[OB1]

As I said, it's easier to tell a story from the point of view of the new character onto the scene than it is from the point of view of the veteran... but it does get a bit old when almost everything has that storyline. Especially in fantasy... when's the last time the main character in a fantasy game WASN'T either a farmboy or some other kind of innocent-person-drawn-into-great-events? Yes, that character has more of a sense of being 'average person', but really... do we need almost EVERY game to work that way? :)

That's not how it is in MGS2 at all...

[A Black Falcon]

That's not how it is in MGS2 at all...

MGS2 isn't fantasy, is it? So no, it isn't, and I said so... it only relates in that it's a story with the more 'normal person' character as the main character (or at least, the one you play) for most of the game, like such stories.

[EdenMaster]

You can say what you like to justify Raiden's existence, but the fact remains, he's no Snake.

[Dark Jaguar]

No he's not, and he shouldn't be :D.

Oh and, I think it goes beyond just whiny gamers, to the general populace of America as a whole, or basically just humanity.

Futurama quote time!

Fry: I'm human! I can prove it! Look, I'm all pudgy, and fidgety, also I complain a lot!

Robot: Yes, you do.

[A Black Falcon]

But then Fry convinced himself he's a robot...

[Dark Jaguar]

Gotta love Fry, he's one of them red headed rapscally...wags...

[Private Hudson]

Who cares if he's not Snake? I don't think Crono was anywhere near as good a character as Snake, but I don't bitch and moan about it.

[Great Rumbler]

Well, I didn't really complain about it either, but the fact remains that Raiden is inherently uncool.

[OB1]

MGS2 isn't fantasy, is it? So no, it isn't, and I said so... it only relates in that it's a story with the more 'normal person' character as the main character (or at least, the one you play) for most of the game, like such stories.

What the hell did that mean.

[EdenMaster]

Who cares if he's not Snake? I don't think Crono was anywhere near as good a character as Snake, but I don't bitch and moan about it.

???

You're talking about two completely seperate games. I'm not talking about character popularity as far as gaming as a whole is concerned (in which case, Auron from FFX mops the floor with anyone), I'm referring to just the MGS games, where Solid Snake reigns supreme.

[A Black Falcon]

What the hell did that mean.

I was only peripherally talking about MGS there, that's what I meant...

[Private Hudson]

EM, he wasn't the protagonist in MGS2 for the same reason that he wasn't the protagonist in Chrono Trigger.

..it wouldn't work.

Though, now that I think about it.. playing as Snake in Chrono Trigger would have been pretty badass...

p.s. Sephiroth will always be a better character than Auron.

[Dark Jaguar]

Auron isn't that popular...

Terra, Cloud, Cecil, THOSE are popular. Auron is just "one of the gang" really.

Oh and, if you think Auron is cool now, wait until Hades (DISNEY'S Hades) brings him back to life to serve him, along with his OTHER Soldier, Pete! (Yes, Pete as in Goofy's rival from Goof Troup). Pete actually gets Jafar's lamp, so watch out! Kingdom Hearts is just awesomly hilarious... And yes, Auron DOES flip out and attack Hades the second Hades gets him into the living world.

[Private Hudson]

Well I always thought Auron was pretty awesome..

As far as I know, he's more popular than Cecil! Though that may be just the mainstream.

Sephiroth is still the greatest. An awesomely tragic figure.

[Dark Jaguar]

What, no comment on how Hades is bringing him back from the Far Plane (apparently connected to the underworld) to fight for him?

[Private Hudson]

Uhh..

I'm not familiar with that. :(

[Dark Jaguar]

THIS is what I mean.

[OB1]

Those models look great.

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah really, even without cel shading I'm amazed how cartoony it all looks.

Ya know they are finally trying to fix that camera system. Problem is, they are now using the second stick. That's a problem because of the stick's old function, navigating control commands during combat while still being able to move freely.

[Dark Jaguar]

You may not be able to see Beaker and Dr. Bunsen in the new Star Wars movie, but hey watching Mickey Mouse kick more arse than Yoda has it's own appeal.

[OB1]

I never cared for Mickey Mouse. He never had a personality. Well, he did for a little while before he became the company face.

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah... Honestly KH only showed Mickey for like 5 seconds. But hey, Mickey's been cool before. He was awesome in Roger Rabbit, and in the olden days. This time he's just FRICKIN' awesome. And, Squeenix say they feel they have a lot more freedom with the characters this time around, so who knows what'll happen.

Woah wait a second.... Mickey Mouse FIGHTING Yoda! Frickin' AWESOME!

[OB1]

Roger Rabbit??

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah, Roger Rabbit. You know, the huge world mixing movie from like, the 1980's or something? They made up a character that sort of had it all, and then they threw in appearences from pretty much every single major cartoon making company in America. So like, Donald and Daffy fought each other, and Mickey and Bugs took turns basically figuring out ways to kill some poor guy falling from the top of a building... you know, making him die... harder.

[OB1]

Oh yeah, I think I remember that.

Loved that movie, haven't seen it in ages.

[Dark Jaguar]

I saw it a few months ago on some movie channel. Yeah, seeing Judge again, that was a disturbing villian... Seriously, he's freaky.

Not the Dip!

[N_A]

Splinter Cell 3 rules - and actually, from the first few single player missions alone, the game is considerably more stress inducing than the first 2 given the increase in realism and stealth demands.

Man... Sam Fisher is more of the real deal kind of spy... Solid Snake is some comic book style pussy in fantasy world of ... well, figuratively speaking... a bunch of bad men in tights with super powers. Metal Gear's story line is full ridiculous and laughably over exagerated stuff. Sam Fisher is a hero I can believe actually exists in some form in our world today and someone I might actually admire for his deeds to preserve US security.