WTF, how much more can they ruin Sonic?

[OB1]

Good grief.

The first inductee into the walk of game was Sega's classic mascot hero Sonic the Hedgehog. A seven-foot tall version of Sonic the Hedgehog took the stage to accept the award and then Sega rolled a video compilation of its Sonic series.

Sega's Isuka-san then took the stage and revealed that a new Sonic game was in development. He said about the new title: "I want to thank you all very much for this honor. I'm happy about Sonic's success, but I'm even more excited about the future."

Sega premiered the first footage of its new platformer Sonic the Hedgehog 3: Shadow of the Hedgehog. The title, which boasts impressive new graphics and more rollercoaster gameplay, is set for release for unspecified consoles during the holiday season of 2005.

Shadow of the Hedgehog follows character Shadow on a new adventure. Armed with a gun and the ability to speed and soar, the mascot can quickly zoom through levels, or stop in mid-air and shoot down opponents.

Movie up at ign, gamespot, etc.


What the hell is Sega thinking? Sonic has always been a kid-friendly series, and now they're putting guns into the main character's hands. And not cartoony laser guns or whatever, but realistic-sounding pistols and automatic weapons. I don't care if it's Shadow, it's the same damn thing. Putting realistic guns into a Sonic game is like putting hardcore porn into a Zelda game (don't smile, guys).

*sigh*

Nice one, Sega. Keep on digging that grave for yourselves.

[A Black Falcon]

Granted, Sonic Adventure 2 left me dissapointed in a way the old Sonic games (1, 2, Sonic 3 & Knuckles) didn't. Mainly because of how short it was... it'd have been a better rental. But still... Sonic Adventure, Adventure 2, and Heroes ruining Sonic? No. T hey're good enough to not do that. I'm sure that this will, at worst, continue their style of being good, but not really great, platformers that are fun enough to run through the first time but don't have the length to keep you playing (I didn't care much about the medals and the Chao Garden is just stupid) or the coolness of the Genesis games.

As for the gun, lots of platformers have had guns. It doesn't ruin them. It just makes it a bit different from a standard Sonic game... but this being Shadow, and not Sonic, that's fine with me.

[Dark Jaguar]

I see where you are going with this, but honestly they already had guns in there, and they kinda already looked like the one I see in that pic... Namely, I sorta remember dodging a lot of gatling gun fire... Besides, what's wrong with guns in a kid friendly game that has constant destruction anyway? Does it really matter what the mechanism of the destruction is? I mean, so long as they don't actually show blood and gore when he shoots up... well he's shooting robots... then I don't see a problem. Didn't that one robot character in the first Sonic Adventure have a gun in the same style? I mean, it shot lasers instead of bullets, but it was the same art style.

In case you wonder exactly what I mean about that, remember Who Framed Roger Rabbit? That put REAL guns into the cartoon's hands, and they shot at actual humans. Heck, the whole premise was that a cartoon was being framed for a gang land murder. And um, Judge, the main villian? He was actually pretty freakin' scary in toon form, despite the very cartoony golden saws and anvils he had...

Basically what I'm saying is, I've been there OB1, but honestly I"m pretty sure that adding a gun, in and of itself, isn't a.. well it's not a bad idea for that reason anyway. The question is, is it just to look cool or do they plan on really making an innovative game experience? Second off, why can't Shadow just gain some new super hero ability to fire like, I dunno, spikes from his back? My main problem is giving Shadow a gun is like giving Super Man a gun.

[A Black Falcon]

DJ, Who Framed Roger Rabbit? wasn't really for kids. :)

[Private Hudson]

Wasn't there already a Sonic the Hedgehog 3?

And why did they give him a gun? It worked for Jak & Daxter/Ratchet & Clank.. and they're arguably the premier platforming games around today..

[Dark Jaguar]

ABF, what do you mean exactly? I mean, sure watching it now I see a lot of the hidden innuendo of that movie, but as a kid I never noticed any of it as they made a pretty good attempt at hiding it all behind stuff we'd find funny, for example, patty cake. They wouldn't be doing stuff like that if they didn't intend it to be for kids. And besides that, every single kid did go out and see it, and they made a Nintendo game based on it (which sucked in retrospect).

I think he meant "Sonic Adventure 3", if not, then Sega screwed up with the naming thing...

Anyway, honestly I don't see the problem, as far as "THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN" when it comes to a fire arm. The problem I see is it just doesn't really fit the mold very well to give The Flash a gun. Also, it's interesting to see that Sonic has been altogether removed from the series. I mean, the two could be related...

In other words, I agree with OB1 that this isn't exactly a good move on Sega's part, I just disagree on one of the reasons it's a bad decision. (I'm pretty sure little kids aren't going to be horrified or desensitized any more by a gun than by sheer beating the snot out of things like they did before. I don't think I ever had a problem with Mario punching his enemies to custard, another repeatable act since last I checked kids had fists and feet, and likely access to hammers.) Also, I at least acknowledge that adding shooting to high speed COULD be a new gameplay experience...

I only bring that up not to start any argument, but basically to make it clear that when I say "I agree", there are a few places I need to define where I don't exactly, but it doesn't really matter.

[lazyfatbum]

Jak and Dextar/Ratchet and Clank are just platformers with guns for a distance attack. Hopefully Shadow wont be as shallow.

The 3-D Sonic games have always lacked gameplay in my opinion and there were always rocket launchers, cannons, machine guns and what not.

I mean they have an echidna that floats and punches things, a mutant fox that flies like a helicopter, a female hedgehog with a giant hammer and some other animals that were one-game-wonders. If they want to make something original they need to go outside the usual paradigm of thinking for Sonic games.

Nintendo made Wario who spanks his ass, cheats, lies has giant muscles and is a greedy bastard with money. Shadow is just Sonic's Wario, and it makes sense that he has a gun... though laser eyes or a shoulder mounted thing like Predator might have been more suiting for the sonic universe. I guess Sega just wants to take it extremely dark.

You gotta remember, back in the day Sonic was the badass mascot. A Mario with attitude. So Sega's trying to bring their mascots back in to today's market which is alot more hardcore than it used to be. Maybe Shadow can piss on his foes after capping them.

[OB1]

Did you guys even watch the video? There have never been realistic-looking and sounding guns in Sonic games. Ever. No sensible human being can really say that the cartoony rockets and fake guns of past Sonic games are the same as this, if you've watched the video. This is Sonic May Cry that Sega is making. And the Ratchet games are rated Teen, people. Sonic has always been E, like Mario. But even then R&C uses mostly cartoony weaponry.

If shooting a cartoon character in the head with an SMG is the same to you as Wario spanking his ass in a playful, mocking manner, then, well... you people need some help.

And the 3D Sonic games are crap compared to the 2D ones. Just thought I'd mention that.

[OB1]

Seriously, just look at this crap:






They've put a very realistic firearm into a kid's game. I still can't believe no one on this forum cares about this. Every other major gaming forum is filled with people just as appalled as I am.





Just look at that! This whole gangster crap really pisses me off. Can't Sega make one single decent 3D Sonic game? Hey I love stuff like Conker's BFD as much as the next guy, but I don't want to see all of my favorite "kiddy" series GTA-ified!

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah I watched it. I was looking at the in-game gun though, not that pic... Yeah, that's realistic looking, but is it really going to be something horrifying to the kids?

Ya know, I did say I agree with you that they should have gone with something that fits in the Sonic universe better. You can't expect me to agree with ALL you say though. I really don't think it's going to be harmful in the least for kids to see this guy holding a gun when compaired to the destruction he wreaks anyway. Is it really BETTER if wanton destruction is made to look fun and silly?

[OB1]

Ask yourself this: If Nintendo were to make a "mature" Mario game where was made up all gangster-like, would you care?

I think you would. Very much so. Yes Sonic has always been edgier than Mario, but not like this.

Do you have any little nephews or nieces that like to play video games? I have a little nephew that's obsessed with Sonic, and he especially loves the Shadow character. But I'll be damned if I let him play this new game. I'm not blaming games for making people do stupid things, that's where the parent's responsibility lies. It's just a shame that I won't be able to show him this new Sonic game. None of us really care about these characters, but little kids do, just like we used to love this stuff when we were little. And when you take something like Shadow that appeals as a character, MAINLY to kids, and put a realistic gun into his hands... that's just wrong. Wronger than even that dumb-looking new "Loonatics" thing. At least they look nothing like the old characters.

I think this is even worse than what they did to PoP. I despise this trend in gaming. I really do.

[Dark Jaguar]

And honestly, as I said, I agree with most of that. I just don't see a problem, if my littlest siblings want to play this game, in letting them. I really don't see how it's going to hurt them... Wait, is your argument that you want to give kids a sense of artistic integrity, rather than thinking putting a gun in the hands of a hero is somehow bad? I suppose I can understand that...

But yeah, I get what you mean about sorta going against the whole theme of the series... I just don't really care that much... To me, the Sonic series was already ruined. I mean, they had the heavy metal, the whole "Shadow is pure evil, no wait, he's misunderstood" thing. Yeah, Shadow was already the sort of character they shouldn't have added to Sonic... or maybe they should have.... Come to think of it, Sonic's very existance was in the vein of the disgusting "to the extreme" trend. I think, in fact, Sonic is RESPONSIBLE for it.

So um, yeah, are you really surprised?

[OB1]

Well that's where I disagree with you. I would never let one of my younger nephews or nieces (or my own kids, if I ever have any) play something like this. I don't think it's good to start idolizing realistic firearms at such a young age.

So um, yeah, are you really surprised?

Definitely. I thought that Sega was above this. Guess I was wrong. I agree that all of the metal and crappy music/attitude in recent Sonic games has been retarded, but this is a whole new level of bad.

[Dark Jaguar]

Ah c'mon... guns are safe! Look, to put you at ease just watch this little video starring Sparky the pistol.

Sparky: When you squeeze me, I make bad people go away!

DJ: Hahaha, good comedy, but on a serious note *walks with hands clasped dramatically through dark hall full of images* let's take a look at it this way. What's so different from them idolizing guns, as you say they might, and idolizing swords, or just plain punching stuff about the head and neck? Because it's Japan, most of the games have fighting. I mean, as of yet my little sister hasn't gone around hitting people with a giant key, though she's been eyeing that gigantic wooden fork on the wall suspiciously... Also, I have yet to see them reenact something along the lines of Wario's shoulder charge. Or, Mario's punching. That stuff, though comedic, is actually doable in the real world.

...though in this case your point is probably that this is different because rather than a gun with fins all over it and energy halos, it's a realistic looking gun like Dante has. Yeah, I can see where you are going with it... I just don't really think that makes much of a difference... but then again it depends on the content to me. If they actually extreme it up to the point where it literally is Grand Theft Auto, then no, I won't be letting any kids I'm taking care of play it. If it's just platforming and a standard Sonic story, but he can shoot people now, eh it's fine...

But hey, I'm hardly going to hold it against you if you decide that's not something kids you are watching should see. The point is you are actually looking at games and deciding what they should and shouldn't see, and that's exactly what adults should be doing. The nuances of whether or not I agree with the details don't really matter relative to that.

[OB1]

Swords and fists aren't nearly as harmful as guns, you know that. And swords, well... how often do you hear about sword-related crimes? And guns are banned in most countries. Here in the U.S. where just about anyone can get a hold of a gun and they're idolized in everything from music to movies to toys, I think it's very harmful for a young child to become used to them and think of them as "fun things". Realistic ones, that is. If it's cartoony or unrealistic then I don't care as much. In this new Sonic game, it's as realistic as you can get.

But aside from that, it's just plain retarded to see a Sonic character with a gun.

[Dark Jaguar]

I see your thinking there, and I won't tell you it's a wrong way to think or anything. Honestly, I put any sort of violence in the same category, ignoring the damage ratings (perhaps knives would have been a better one since that's a more common crime...), so I just differ here. No need to dwell on it. Let's just agree to disagree on that one point.

[OB1]

Fine by me.

[Great Rumbler]

What the heck is Sega thinking?

Seriously, this is dumb, at least from where I'm standing. There's absolutely no point in taking the Sonic series in a direction like this, in fact it chaging the series that gave of a sub-par Sonic game like SA2. They need to go BACK to the way the used make Sonic games not change them even more. I don't know, maybe it'll turn out to be a great game, but I can't help thinking that there's a better way to do it.

"Haunted by his past"

Oh joy. At least I still have Sonic 2, which after playing exstensively a few weeks ago, is still one of the greatest games ever made.

[Dark Jaguar]

I still think Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the greatest Sonic game myself. I still haven't played Sonic CD yet though, so I can only say it's my favorite of the ones I've played so far.

[OB1]

I agree, Sonic 3 & Knuckles (together as one game) is the best Sonic game IMO. And if that doesn't count then I pick Sonic 3.

[Great Rumbler]

Sonic 3 and Knuckles is a good game, but still, it's Sonic 2 all the way.

[Dark Jaguar]

I should say it would count. I mean, I think it's fine to rate any game plus it's expansions as one cohesive unit.

[OB1]

Sonic 3 and Knuckles is a good game, but still, it's Sonic 2 all the way.
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Nah.

[Geno]

Weak. Lame. Shadow with a realistic gun = bad.

[Dark Jaguar]

One of these days... Sonic CD... From what I understand, it was actually made before Sonic 3, using the Sonic 1 sprite for Sonic.

[OB1]

Just get the PC version and use a gamepad.

[Dark Jaguar]

I don't think I mentioned any specific VERSION, just that I wanted that game period. If any stores sold any version of it around here, I'd pick it up right then and there. I mean, a few stores have brand new copies of things like Doom 1, an OLDER game, but Sonic CD or any Sonic collection with it? Nowhere to be found...

[OB1]

I saw a $5 copy at Office... Depot, I think it was. Try those types of places.

[Sacred Jellybean]

This is a dumb idea, but I don't think it's a travesty to end all other video game industry travesties. They could implement this very gameplay idea (which isn't that great or innovative an idea to begin with) with a cartoony laser gun, and it would fit into the Sonic Atmosphere much more smoothly. The focus of this isn't a new, fun gameplay idea, though. The focus is probably on image and game presentation. I mean, honestly... Sonic Adventure with a gun? That's nothing impressive or fresh.

[Dark Jaguar]

I suppose I could check an Office Depot out some time... I have my doubts though, considering the last time I was there they reduced their little really old game section to a single all purpose basket... and it didn't have much in it... and I have a feeling they intended on just getting rid of them without restocking...

[OB1]

Yeah, it might not be there anymore. If it ever was, in the one where you live.

[Dark Jaguar]

I think there are a few in Tulsa, but the one closest to me might not have it. If I'm ever near the others I may check them out.

[OB1]

So your local EB or Gamestop doesn't have it?

[Dark Jaguar]

Well no, they don't even have a lot of really old games. You see, in Tulsa there is a fairly successful used game store chain that pays more than Gamestop (or whatever the parent company that owns all of the little name alterations is called) does on average, and takes more. So, almost all the used games end up in one of that chain's stores. I think I've mentioned the name before at least. It's called Vintage Stock. There are only 3 stores in the entire city, far less than the number of Gamestops and such, but it's well known enough in the gaming community that most old games and systems end up there. Now, Gamestop isn't completely out of the loop, but most of the old games they get are from THIS generation :D. Basically, if I'm going to get a copy of Sonic CD, it'll be from there.

[OB1]

I see.

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah, except one little problem with that chain. They almost never have any PC games... It kinda sucks because I'd like to get the first two Monkey Island games and a bunch of other PC classics, but for some reason they just don't carry many, if any, PC games.

[OB1]

You could always get them online.

[A Black Falcon]

I still think Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the greatest Sonic game myself. I still haven't played Sonic CD yet though, so I can only say it's my favorite of the ones I've played so far.

Yes, yes it is. Though I haven't played Sonic CD either, really... Genesises were common, but not Sega CDs... but still, Sonic 3 & Knuckles is better than the first two or the 3d ones. Or Sonic 3D and Sonic Spinball...

As for Sonic CD for the PC, I have seen it for sale, many times. Not sure how recently the last time I saw it was, but I think it's still around, at least as a collection (packed with Sonic R, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Genesis classics collection, etc. I think)... if you look around enough you should be able to find Sonic CD for the PC. Though, given that it was released in 1996 or so, getting it to run well could be a bit of a pain... but at least you'd have the game. And as OB1 said there's always online sales... though I don't like buying stuff that way. (Why haven't I got it given that I've seen it for sale a bunch of times? I guess I just never wanted it quite enough... I did get Sonic 3 & Knuckles for PC some years back though.)

As for when it was made, yes, Sonic CD is from before Sonic 3.


Oh yeah, finally, the guns thing. I think you're overstating things, OB1... this is a Sonic game so the violence isn't going to be very realistic. And this is an evil character so they have to show that in some way or you'll just be left thinking 'how exactly is this guy evil, beyond perhaps his attitude?'... they shouldn't make it super-violent and have blood or anything, but the mere presence of a gun? Oh well.

[Great Rumbler]

I have the real-deal version of Sonic CD on the Sega CD. Beat that!

Basically, it's a decent game, but the whole time-travelling aspect isn't really THAT great.

[OB1]

You're totally right, ABF. This is sooo cartoony:






You can't see me but my eyes are rolled up all the way back into my skull right now.

[Great Rumbler]

"That's rocking with 'tude." ~ My brother

[A Black Falcon]

It's not hyper-realistic, that's for sure... it's a cartoon black critter with a vaguely realistic gun! Oh no, it'll convince the kids to go out and be murderers too!

[OB1]

Did you see that huge picture of Shadow with his gun?? It doesn't get any more realistic than that!

To think the biggest liberal on the forum, of all people, would condone this. Amazing.

[A Black Falcon]

I've played plenty of kid's platformers wth characters with guns, and it's usually done in a pretty unrealistic manner. I"m sure this will be the same...

[OB1]

Again: Did you SEE that picture and WATCH THE VIDEO.

[Great Rumbler]

Hey, for some reason that big picture has just vanished. I don't see it anywhere at GCAdvanced.

[OB1]

Shit, did you save it?

[Great Rumbler]

No, I didn't.

[OB1]

Well tell this dork over here how realistic the gun looked. It was even more realistic than anything in Metal Gear Solid.

[Great Rumbler]

It was as realistic a gun as I've seen.