Controversy! Arguementation! Choose your religion!! [With poll]

[Great Rumbler]

As I am sometimes want to do, I will make a grand attempt to once again stir the pot of controversy! This is the "Grand Religions Thread of Heated Debates and General Yelling Because People Can Never Agree On Things When Religion Is Involved" thread. Want to talk about religion? Don't want to talk about religion? Want to make outrageous claims about your religion/sect/cult/ect. being better than everyone else and anyone who isn't part of your religion/sect/cult/ect. will burn forever in the flaming bowels of Hades like the unwashed heathens we all know they are? Do it HERE!! AND DO IT LOUDLY!!!

[deanna]

I am a Christian, and a member of a Baptist church, if thats what you meant by 'indicate'.

I believe that in order to go to heaven after your death, you must believe in Jesus Christ and have him as your personal savior. I think its pretty easy...:nodding:

[Great Rumbler]

Yeah, that's what I meant by indicate. Christianity is fairly broad, maybe others are too I don't really know, and it encompasses quite a few different large sections. Anyway, I'm a member of the Church of Christ.

[deanna]

Oh you are a part of the 'church without music'...or is that another denomination???

No offense against Church of Christ, I mean...I know a lot of people who go there. I think it would be kind of awkward though

[Great Rumbler]

Church without music? We'll we sing songs, if that's what you mean, though unlike others we don't use musical instruments.

[Geno]

I'm a Baptist.

[Great Rumbler]

Things are pretty calm so far, but I figure it's only a matter of time...

[deanna]

exactly.......by music, I meant what is in the background of what you are singing. I would scream if I had to sing a cappela all the time

[Great Rumbler]

It's not that bad, you just have to tune your voice to where it's in harmony with everyone else's. Not that hard.

[deanna]

Well I could do it easily. I have a "beautiful voice" (my mom, dad, and voice trainer say), but I just think it would get annoying. Why don't ya'll have music anyways?

[A Black Falcon]

I added Unitarian Universalist to the list. Because it's what I am. :)

I'm also an athiest, but I'm a UU who is an athiest, I'd say... I could say I'm both, but being a UU doesn't mean you have any specific belief about deities so that wouldn't really make sense.

[deanna]

I added Unitarian Universalist to the list. Because it's what I am. :)

explain what that is exactly...please

[A Black Falcon]

A religion. Which I consider myself a part of because it's where my parents decided to go when they thought they should bring their children to some churth. :)

Used to be Christian, doesn't consider itsself that anymore. Pretty much the most liberal mainstream religion there is... there are the Principles and Purposes, but they're really about moral stuff. You aren't told to believe any one thing regarding god (God, gods, no god, whatever). You can't believe ANYTHING (the first principle says 'respect the inherent worth and dignity of every person' -- this rules out some things people believe. :)), but any mainstream religious philosopy is, I'm sure, believed by some UUs... christianity, paganism, athiesm, etc...

I never really went to the services, though. I went to RE (religious education), from whenever we started going until I graduated highschool. We had a group that was there until the year I graduated... we even had the same group leader for at least part of the last eight years of the group. I never was too interested in the service or sermon, but really liked our RE group so I kept going until graduation. Since then, of course, I've only been back a couple of times at the christmas eve service. But I doubt I'd be much more intrested now in most of the services, so that's fine with me.

[Great Rumbler]

Why don't ya'll have music anyways?

We believe that music has to come from the heart, meaning it's to be sung be everyone and to be done without the aid of any instruments.

I added Unitarian Universalist to the list. Because it's what I am.

Sounds like a fancy name for athiest if you ask me!

...

But, anyway...

[A Black Falcon]

Only some UUs are athiests, GR... :)

[Geno]

Things are pretty calm so far, but I figure it's only a matter of time...

You mean until Darunia discovers this thread?

[Great Rumbler]

Haha, it'll happen sooner or later! And after that it's only a matter of time before Laser Link and Ryan show up. *teh fireworks*

...

And then of course lazy will show up and I think we all know what happens then...

[Dark Jaguar]

Haha, you included a CULT on that list :D?

Gotta love the church of scientology :D. Seriously, they gave that the perfect name intended to trick people into thinking it was some weird half-athiest thing, until they actually start hearing the stuff they talk about.

Here's a hint, there is an evil space overlord from the 60th dimension taking over the universe that the scientologists are prepairing their mental powers to fight 5000 years from now.

Yes... they actually do believe that... That's not a comedic take on it, it's barely paraphrase.

And GR, how is it that the voice is more from the heart than instruments? After all, humans made them using our very brains.

Nondenominational, that's the one for me. Sorry, I just can't stand behind whatever gets in the way of my desire to become a cyborg, or further. I mean, does that mean Steven Hawking wouldn't be allowed to sing?

[Geno]

Haha, it'll happen sooner or later! And after that it's only a matter of time before Laser Link and Ryan show up. *teh fireworks*

...

And then of course lazy will show up and I think we all know what happens then...

Random, insane stories which make everybody laugh (or make a WTF face) and forget all about the debates about the legitimacy of creationism.

[A Black Falcon]

The Church of Scientology was founded by an accomplished science fiction author. That should mean something. :)

Random, insane stories which make everybody laugh (or make a WTF face) and forget all about the debates about the legitimacy of creationism.

He actually has seriously debated things before...

[Great Rumbler]

Haha, you included a CULT on that list ?

The Church of Scientology is a religion unto itself. :)

And GR, how is it that the voice is more from the heart than instruments? After all, humans made them using our very brains.

Instruments are artificial creations not part of the body itself, while the vocal chords and lungs are. :)

[Dark Jaguar]

....your point? :D

You have to understand, to me artificial and natural are meaningless phrases. I say this because from a scientific point of view such designations are meaningless. I mean, a drum had to be made from existing materials, and they had to be made using existing means. Besides that, birds build nests all the time. Is a bird's nest considered unnatural? If the argument is that it's the bird's nature, then let me remind you that the only reason we do, or in fact the only reason we CAN build such things is because it is in our nature to do so. After all, if building was not in our nature, we couldn't possibly be motivated to do it, ever. By that I mean not even the situation of a human forcing another human to build something could ever come up since the idea of building wouldn't be there to begin with. So from my point of view the designation of my voice as natural and my synthesizer as unnatural is arbitrary.

Just my thoughts on this. What argument do you present to say otherwise? I could understand a religious basis for it if you can quote something.

Since so many other beliefs do have subsects, I decided to take away the indicate thing up there. Also, I added "Jedi", due to what I assume is the fairly common knowledge of a fellow in Australia who wrote that into the "other" section of some religion survey done across the country. I dunno, PH could tell us more I bet.

[Great Rumbler]

If you wanted to get right down to it all words and their meanings are essentially meaningless. Their simply an attempt by humans to explain the firing of nuerons as interpretted by the brain. And all our concepts of the universe and how it works are merely ways for us to understand why something happens. So going by that, "natural" and "unnatural" are as meaningless as "drum" and "nest". :)

But, I'll just assume that you want me to explain the difference in a way that us humans can undestand. Let me put it like this: This instrument to be used is the one made by God, meaning ourselves, and not instruments made by US, meaning drums and so forth. So in that sense, natural is something that is designed by God, while unnatural would something that is not. A nest or a drum or a house would be unnatural, while a human or a bird or a plant would be natural, though I suppose you could argue that in this day and age the lines between natural and unnatural are not so pronounced as they once were, what with genetic engineering and all that.

[Dark Jaguar]

Most people would say the oppposite, believing we once lived with nature and now we live outside it.

And yes, language in general is basically just a means of defining where one thing ends and another begins, but I'm talking about how science has no need for such terms.

Oh and, your definition of natural and unnatural has some meaning to it. Basically what you mean to say is "of God" and "of humans" when you say that. Alright, understood. Not so arbitrary when put that way, and you put a bird's nest (and by extension things like it such as a monkey using a stick to get termites) in the category of unnatural so there's no immediate contradictions or anything. Okay, that works.

So am I to take it the seperation lies in something's preexisting physical state before any intelligent alterations are done to it, as opposed to after intelligent alteration? If so, it's not arbitrary any more, so okay that works.

That's not a distinction I make myself though.

[Great Rumbler]

So am I to take it the seperation lies in something's preexisting physical state before any intelligent alterations are done to it, as opposed to after intelligent alteration?

Likely that's where the distinction is made. So that would mean that we only make music by using instruments that God has designed, meaning our bodies. I think that clears things up a bit.

[Dark Jaguar]

Ever celebrate the joy via pink belly?

[Great Rumbler]

If I had any clue what that meant I might be able to give you an appropriate answer...

[Weltall]

I am a Christian, but I do not attend a church, and I do not officially consider myself a part of any religion (I differentiate faith from religion). I do not trust many organized religions, but I would like one day to find a church that worries itself less with earthly matters and politics, and focuses more on the parts that interest me most: explaining Jesus and God to me, and using what I learn to be a part of the community. Until I find this, assuming I ever do, I am more than content to continue the personal relationship I have with God, because I don't think He believes me to be any less of a person just because I don't go to a particular place on a particular day to speak with Him, I do it whenever, and wherever, I feel.

[Dark Jaguar]

Oh... allow me to explain some slang to you. By "celebrate the joy" I mean the music done in church. By "pink belly" I mean the thing where a group of bullies hold down some poor soul and then proceed to slap that person's belly repeatedly until it becomes... well pink. In combining the two, I intended to suggest using your stomach as a drum.

[alien space marine]

The Church of Scientology was founded by an accomplished science fiction author. That should mean something. :)



He actually has seriously debated things before...

"Battlefeild Earth"

If he achieved anything it was building a church so he could gain tax exemption placing all of his earnings as church money.

They are a very secretive and deceptive about how they present their church doctrinage, Their official site proclaims that Scientology doesnt require faith which is clearly false and misleading there is more to it then some scientifically based atheism which is what the general public preceive it as and thats probaily what they want the general public to believe , Infact its hardly scientific because their is no proof or logic in much of the claims so there for it does require "faith" , Like DJ said you gonna have to believe a powerful race called Xenu ruled by a tyrant Warlord existed thousands of years ago , Colonized the earth to dump excess overpopulation and dispose of all desenters , Obliterating the planet with a doomsday thermal nuclear weapon and remeber this is just "thousands not millions of years ago". The condemned Xenu souls were now severed from their living bodies and swarming all over the planet and some reached the upper thermasphere.

Then after the dust settled built a factory plant on island in pasific to help to process and divide up all their special swarming imortal souls called "Satens" interestingly pronounced "Satans".

The Xenu Satens after being processed were then traped on earth in a formless enetheral state waundering around, So they attached themselves to living matter on earth to take new bodies and become corporal again, But there waisnt enough host for the Satens to go around so all were forced to clump together sharing vessels that much their incredible hidden powers were diluted down to nothing.

The Scientologist believe that all humans and living beings have thousands of Satens fused within themselves , by seperating and defragmenting the Satens reaching higher levels of scientology they then can tap into the hidden powers such as Telepathy,Precognition,Telekinesis, Also trying to retain lost memmories of past life as a Xenu.Yes they do plan to build up their supernatural powers to battle the Xenu warlords and his minions when they return in 5,000 years. They think by mastering their satens they can then be abled to remeber all their knoweldge and experiences when it takes a new human host after they die in this life and continue the process of cleasing the Satens and defragmenting them again.

No scientologist has ever been abled to prove or back up their claims of super human powers ,Most average scientologist wont witness it either just hear rumours and gossip,Most will say the ascended are seperated from the lower level members for fear they will off set their growth since they now have already masterd the novice early training.

http://www.infidelguy.com/demo/infidelgu...tology.mp3

[Dark Jaguar]

That's.... correct. Amazing... The odds of that are less than... wait did you bang the keyboard and click submit? Oh well, however that got there under your name, it's dead on.

And yes, of course they don't call themselves a cult, but that's what they are. They seperate you from all you know or care about, save those who also follow them. They put you to work for pretty much the rest of your life. They will not reveal higher tenents of the faith until you are "prepaired". These are all major cult signs.

Actually, the fact of the matter is, the Jedi show all the same classic signs of being a cult. Honestly I imagine if the Jedi were real it would be a horribly corrupt thing. As it is, they too are a group that get children, seperate them from their families and force them to live in their own compounds, won't reveal any secret knowledge until they are "ready" for it, and demand total conformance lest they be thrown out, and since they were taken in as kids, that's a major threat as they will be instantly homeless. Really, despite how the movies portray them, the Jedi really are pretty evil when you think about it. It's no wonder people go to the "dark side" when that's what the light side offers.

[alien space marine]

That's.... correct. Amazing... The odds of that are less than... wait did you bang the keyboard and click submit? Oh well, however that got there under your name, it's dead on.

And yes, of course they don't call themselves a cult, but that's what they are. They seperate you from all you know or care about, save those who also follow them. They put you to work for pretty much the rest of your life. They will not reveal higher tenents of the faith until you are "prepaired". These are all major cult signs.

Actually, the fact of the matter is, the Jedi show all the same classic signs of being a cult. Honestly I imagine if the Jedi were real it would be a horribly corrupt thing. As it is, they too are a group that get children, seperate them from their families and force them to live in their own compounds, won't reveal any secret knowledge until they are "ready" for it, and demand total conformance lest they be thrown out, and since they were taken in as kids, that's a major threat as they will be instantly homeless. Really, despite how the movies portray them, the Jedi really are pretty evil when you think about it. It's no wonder people go to the "dark side" when that's what the light side offers.

I noticed I did make a few grammarical errors I apologize

That little bit I told you about the origins of the "Satens" , That area of scientology is forbidden from most members even after years of membership.

The highest in the hierarchy in the Cult are the only ones who can freely read this tenet of scientology comprised by L Rob Hubbard , They will tell common members that if you read those specific passages before you were prepared you would die soon after because it would cause some sort of overload if your Satens were not properly orderd and ascended enough.

But this information is of course freely avalible over the internet by former members , Often they can be sued or even threatend with violence for revealing to many important secrets,They have a agency within the church to investigate the activities of members and former members.

L Ron Hubbard created a policy he called "fair game " , Any apostate former member who critizes and opposes the church and reveals to many secrets to the public, Any good standing member is encouraged to persecute or even physically assualt them by any means necessary.

They make it very dificult to leave the church ,One out spoken exscientologist had to leave the country for fear the cult was going to retaliate violently on him.

[Great Rumbler]

I am a Christian, but I do not attend a church, and I do not officially consider myself a part of any religion (I differentiate faith from religion). I do not trust many organized religions, but I would like one day to find a church that worries itself less with earthly matters and politics, and focuses more on the parts that interest me most: explaining Jesus and God to me, and using what I learn to be a part of the community. Until I find this, assuming I ever do, I am more than content to continue the personal relationship I have with God, because I don't think He believes me to be any less of a person just because I don't go to a particular place on a particular day to speak with Him, I do it whenever, and wherever, I feel.

If that's the case you'd probably want to stay away from really large churches. The one that I go to is quite small, though not the smallest in the area, with around 70-80 members. It's pretty much what you described, we help out the community when we can and so on without doing anything "political".

[A Black Falcon]

Actually, the fact of the matter is, the Jedi show all the same classic signs of being a cult. Honestly I imagine if the Jedi were real it would be a horribly corrupt thing. As it is, they too are a group that get children, seperate them from their families and force them to live in their own compounds, won't reveal any secret knowledge until they are "ready" for it, and demand total conformance lest they be thrown out, and since they were taken in as kids, that's a major threat as they will be instantly homeless. Really, despite how the movies portray them, the Jedi really are pretty evil when you think about it. It's no wonder people go to the "dark side" when that's what the light side offers.

You have to consider the fact that in Star Wars the force actually exists. This gives the Jedi very good reasons to act as they do. Oh, sure, they're not perfect, but that's why they get defeated by Palpatine...


As for the Scientologists, that's insane... I'd heard some of that before, but it's just so crazy... eh, not much weirder than any other religious belief though, when you get down to it. Just different. :) (But yeah, it's definitely a cult)

[Dark Jaguar]

Indeed, I've heard about it from a former member speaking out against it. When he left he was afraid for his life for a few years. He hasn't been attacked so he's not so afraid or anything, but one thing's for sure. Since they got him when he was in high school when he finally left he had nothing, no job skills, notta. He doesn't even have a family to go back to, or more accuratly, he has no idea where his family lives now. He does construction for a living, but his mind is free so he's happy with it. Notibly, he did get those construction skills from the cult due to their commands to build more churches.

Well yeah the force actually exists, but their methods are rather evil regardless. I just remembered something. Isn't there supposed to be like a book series involving like "the new Jedi"? Did they change all their tennents to remove the cult stuff?

[OB1]

Hey I'm amazed you caught that DJ, and I applaud you for it. I don't want to spoil much, but let me just say that in Episode III you will find out something related to that very comment you made, and why the training of Luke and everything that he learned in the OT was so drastically different from the insane rules of the Jedi in the prequels.

That having been said, they're just movies. It's best not to take them too seriously or analyze them too closely. :)

[Dark Jaguar]

Of all the people to say that, it's nice that you seem to realize that anyway :D. Anyway, I was basically stating that as a joke making fun of it, but if in fact that's like... some whole point, then hey okay then.

[OB1]

Hey I've never even been to a star wars convention before. I just love the movies, as movies.

[Dark Jaguar]

I don't recall mentioning such conventions :D, and I was saying it's nice to see you aren't THAT much of a Star Wars worshipper. No need to defend yourself :D.

[OB1]

I was talking in jest!

[Dark Jaguar]

You were?! :shock:

Ya know, it just goes to show that subtleties like tone of voice, being as important as they are in conversation, just can't be conveyed via text...

Homsar: Don't give up yet! Reeaaad an owl!

DJ: That's right Homsar!

[Geno]

Stave it off, 1 2 3, and now you can count to three!

[deanna]

Where did the arguement go???

[OB1]

You were?! :shock:

Ya know, it just goes to show that subtleties like tone of voice, being as important as they are in conversation, just can't be conveyed via text...

Yeah, that's why I think all forms of text should be sent to prison.

Yes, PRISON!!!!

[Great Rumbler]

So, when I thread is made for the distinct purpose of arguing people don't argue in it? Well no one ever accused us of being able to stay on topic...

[OB1]

Reverse psychology, bubba.

[Great Rumbler]

So I guess the thread should have been "Calmly Talk About Your Religion With Others In A Non-Threatening Enviroment Where Everyone Is Understanding Of Your Views"...

[Weltall]

OB1, aren't you Baha'i?

I'm sure I remember you saying so a long time ago, and then explaining it to me.

[Darunia]

Does this thread mean that I can start another religious war?

[Great Rumbler]

Why do you think I named the thread what I did? Just as long as you keep the fight here and don't take it to other threads as well AND at least attempt to be marginally civil.