Arena

[OB1]

There is no point in repeating my defence when you ignore it. So I won't bother, though I know your charges are completely baseless.

*sigh*

Fine. Though I doubt that any one Body Harvest level is bigger than a whole GTA city...

Actually, most of the BH levels are much bigger than Liberty City in GTA 3.

[A Black Falcon]

Actually, most of the BH levels are much bigger than Liberty City in GTA 3.

I really don't know. Seems like it's a bit hard to compare with how differently the games look and are designed, from perspective (how close to the vehicle you are) to level design (city vs. big and open)...

*sigh*

Give me one reason that repeating obvious facts for the fifteenth time would change your mind on anything. ... Exactly, you'd just repeat your same old stupid responses you have to the first fourteen (or however many times it has been) times. When you are acting this stupid, debate is useless, so I won't bother...

And besides, and more to the point, there is nothing new I could say! I have given every possible explanation. The fact that you have ignored and/or belittled them doesn't change the fact that I have sufficiently explained myself.

[OB1]

I really don't know. Seems like it's a bit hard to compare with how differently the games look and are designed, from perspective (how close to the vehicle you are) to level design (city vs. big and open)...

Hey... dumbass... come over here. Let me tell you something.

You see, I've played through all of BH and GTA 3. You have not. So I know how the games compare to each other in terms of size. You do not.

Geez, what an idiot.

Give me one reason that repeating obvious facts for the fifteenth time would change your mind on anything. ... Exactly, you'd just repeat your same old stupid responses you have to the first fourteen (or however many times it has been) times. When you are acting this stupid, debate is useless, so I won't bother...

And besides, and more to the point, there is nothing new I could say! I have given every possible explanation. The fact that you have ignored and/or belittled them doesn't change the fact that I have sufficiently explained myself.

I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you weren't such a fucking moron who needed repeating to, Brian!!

[A Black Falcon]

I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you weren't such a fucking moron who needed repeating to, Brian!!

I hope someday you come back and read this thread again when you can think straight (without being stuck in that position you got yourself in of never allowing yourself to admit fault in anything so you must act like you cannot be wrong even when it is clear you are) and see how foolish you have acted in this thread. I'm sure anyone else who bothered to read the thread sure can tell that!

[OB1]

I hope someday you come back and read this thread again when you can think straight (without being stuck in that position you got yourself in of never allowing yourself to admit fault in anything so you must act like you cannot be wrong even when it is clear you are) and see how foolish you have acted in this thread. I'm sure anyone else who bothered to read the thread sure can tell that!

Dude, you're projecting. You always do that, and don't even realize it. How sad...

[A Black Falcon]

I'd ask for someone else to read this thread and prove it, but I would never want to inflict that kind of pain on someone... if it wasn't so incredibly frusterating, your total inability to see anything you don't want to see would be sad, I guess, but as it is... it's not fun reading (and I mean your whole half of this "discussion" that would have been a discussion if anyone other than you had been involved).

Seriously, if you could lower that bar of "my position is always right and I can never see any truth in anyone else's points or any faults in my own" and actually READ the thread, you'd see exactly what I've been trying to say from the beginning. You never will of course so it's a forlorn hope... but can't I be allowed to wish that someday you might come to realize how flawed your whole position in this arguement has been?

[OB1]

You know, I could take 95% of your posts in any debate that we've ever had and switch them all around and nobody would be able to tell the difference. And that's because you only ever have once stance, one thing to say: "You're so wrong why can't you admit that you're wrong you never admit that you're wrong!". Seriously, that is all you ever fucking say! You have nothing else! You're a broken record! An insanely annoying, pathetic, and lonely broken record. Basically what your retorts ever amount to is "I'm rubber you're glue whatever you say bounced off of me and sticks to you".

When you finally grow up then I will treat you with respect.

[Great Rumbler]

ABF...go play Morrowind. Then you can come back and talk about it.

[OB1]

Thank you.

[Great Rumbler]

Maybe it is really similar to Arena and Daggerfall, I don't know. But what I know is that I've been play Morrowind for several hours everyday for like three weeks. It's a lot of fun and it's one of those games where your constantly saying "I'll just finish up this quest and then finish" or "I'll just play for five more minutes". It's a huge world and there's a ton of stuff to do. One of my only complaints is that people you sell things to rarely have enough to buy the more expensive items from you. Of course that hasn't stopped me from amassing a large fortune. On that subject, I have roughly 200,000 gold pieces worth of armor stashed away at the Fighter's Guild in Balmora because I couldn't sell it to anyone and they were too valuable for me to throw away. Sad really.

[OB1]

You playing the PC version?

[A Black Falcon]

The main problem here is one that I stated very early on. It isn't that I haven't played Morrowind... sure, that would help. But it'd be okay if someone else here had played either Arena or Daggerfall... I know I've said that based on reviews it seems like the series has only changed incrementally (and not fundamentally), but it'd be much easier to quantify if anyone had played even two out of the three games. Without that it just becomes too hard to compare... text descriptions can only go so far.

And OB1, didn't he specifically state that he got it for X-Box?

Maybe it is really similar to Arena and Daggerfall, I don't know. But what I know is that I've been play Morrowind for several hours everyday for like three weeks. It's a lot of fun and it's one of those games where your constantly saying "I'll just finish up this quest and then finish" or "I'll just play for five more minutes". It's a huge world and there's a ton of stuff to do. One of my only complaints is that people you sell things to rarely have enough to buy the more expensive items from you. Of course that hasn't stopped me from amassing a large fortune. On that subject, I have roughly 200,000 gold pieces worth of armor stashed away at the Fighter's Guild in Balmora because I couldn't sell it to anyone and they were too valuable for me to throw away. Sad really.

Ah, RPG staches... let me guess. you put things somewhere and they stay there forever even if five hundred people pass by the unguarded location daily? :)

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with everything you said there! I can certainly see how this series addicts people. I find it somewhat empty because I like more personality and uniqueness in my game locations, but there is something to be said for just exploration as well... so sure, it is certainly an addictive formula. My main point though is that with that game design comes things you necessarially give up that focused RPGs can put a lot of time into (though which way you like better is purely up to you, and both are good).

[OB1]

I recently played some Daggerfall and it was pretty boring. The world is insanely huge, but that's because it's all randomly generated. Everything is too far apart, and it's pretty dull overall.

[Great Rumbler]

Ah, RPG staches... let me guess. you put things somewhere and they stay there forever even if five hundred people pass by the unguarded location daily?

Actually, no. It's in the bed room of the fighter's guild and all the guys there know not to touch my stuff because if they do I'll tear them apart. My guy's awesome like that.

Without that it just becomes too hard to compare... text descriptions can only go so far.

...

The world is insanely huge, but that's because it's all randomly generated. Everything is too far apart, and it's pretty dull overall.

Yeah, I can definitely see how that would get boring. Most Japanese RPGs like that that I've played have been REALLY boring.

[OB1]

Yeah.

[A Black Falcon]

I recently played some Daggerfall and it was pretty boring. The world is insanely huge, but that's because it's all randomly generated. Everything is too far apart, and it's pretty dull overall.

That was definitely one of the main complaints about Daggerfall right there (from reviews and stuff). Huge area, but all randomly generated and repetitive. You can explore nearly identical dungeons for the rest of eternity!

As I said, having a all drawn world would be a massive improvement, certainly, and would remove that big problem with the games. What's left, then, is quests, NPC interactions, story, and uniqueness of the various areas (which really encompasses all of those other things, including the graphical one).

Actually, no. It's in the bed room of the fighter's guild and all the guys there know not to touch my stuff because if they do I'll tear them apart. My guy's awesome like that.

But would it get stolen or something if you left it in an open area?

On that note, how about a RPG where sometimes you get pickpocketed of your gold? :)

[OB1]

That was definitely one of the main complaints about Daggerfall right there (from reviews and stuff). Huge area, but all randomly generated and repetitive. You can explore nearly identical dungeons for the rest of eternity!

As I said, having a all drawn world would be a massive improvement, certainly, and would remove that big problem with the games. What's left, then, is quests, NPC interactions, story, and uniqueness of the various areas (which really encompasses all of those other things, including the graphical one).

Uh, most of those things were fixed with Morrowind. Welcome to 2002, perhaps you should play it!

[A Black Falcon]

Random design and graphics have, but I haven't heard any evidence of much improvement in any of those other categories.

[OB1]

Well let's see...

As I said, having a all drawn world would be a massive improvement,

Check.

quests

Check.

NPC interactions

Check.

story

There's a story there if you wish to follow it. My brother certainly did, and it's the usual cliche PC RPG "reincarnated saviour blah blah blah" thing.

uniqueness of the various areas (which really encompasses all of those other things, including the graphical one)

If you count the two expansions, check! And the GOTY XB edition includes the expansions into one big game so I think it should count.

[Great Rumbler]

quests

You can join the Fighter's Guild, the Mage's Guild, the Theive's Guild, the Great Houses, the Blades, the Imperial Legion, the Temple, and the Mora Tong Guild, all of which have their own quests. And there's the main quest which I'm currently following. It's not unique or anything, but it's good enough to keep your attention.

NPC interactions

You get a huge list of things to ask people about, though generally most people will say basically the same thing. I don't see how this could be a big thing though. Some of the more important characters will have a lot of unique things to talk to you about.

uniqueness of the various areas

Swamps, grasslands, ashlands, islands, and most of the cities have a unique look and architecture style.

But would it get stolen or something if you left it in an open area?

No.

[A Black Falcon]

You get a huge list of things to ask people about, though generally most people will say basically the same thing. I don't see how this could be a big thing though. Some of the more important characters will have a lot of unique things to talk to you about.

Ah, in the first two you can ask about a lot of things too. Except in Arena it is 95% about 'Where is building X', and 5% 'Can you tell me about any jobs?' or 'Can you tell me about any rumors (read: quests in town, generally fedex stuff early on). Daggerfall gives you a longer list, but it's still a majority about "where are things" and a minority about other questions that they will all either not answer ('what is your opinion on this or that faction/thing') or answer similarly... this is not exactly a strength of the series, I'd say, unless it's changed a lot from the first two... but as I've said, when you are dealing with that much scale, how much can you really do?

No.

It never does, does it... :) (Baldur's Gate works exactly the same way -- put your stuff on a table in a busy tavern, leave for a month, come back, and it'll all be there...)

Swamps, grasslands, ashlands, islands, and most of the cities have a unique look and architecture style.

Graphically, of course they are going to be different... but by that I meant a more encompassing thing -- not just the graphical look but also if there are, say, quests that are specific for the region, design differences in the overworld and dungeons in addition to towns, NPCs that actually say different things, etc... this is hard to do really well when you have such a large area to cover in making your game.

You can join the Fighter's Guild, the Mage's Guild, the Theive's Guild, the Great Houses, the Blades, the Imperial Legion, the Temple, and the Mora Tong Guild, all of which have their own quests. And there's the main quest which I'm currently following. It's not unique or anything, but it's good enough to keep your attention.

Sidequests are obviously one of the biggest strengths of the series, but all reports say that the main quests aren't exactly engaging... the games are still great, reviews say, but the main quests are lacking. Fun games to play but not to focus on the main story on and actually finish?

[OB1]

GR pwned you.

[A Black Falcon]

Yes, because you have been SO helpful in this discussion!

[Great Rumbler]

Graphically, of course they are going to be different... but by that I meant a more encompassing thing -- not just the graphical look but also if there are, say, quests that are specific for the region, design differences in the overworld and dungeons in addition to towns, NPCs that actually say different things, etc... this is hard to do really well when you have such a large area to cover in making your game.

Morrowind is a lot like America. There are many different peoples all living together in a single country, but different areas of the country have a larger percentage of one group than another. But in all areas your likely to find at least one person of each group. Each group of people has a certain way of talking about things and beliefs, that's where you get a difference in dialogue. It depends on the race of the person you talk to, not what area you are in. With the quests, it doesn't depend that much on what part of Morrowind you are in since a quest in one part of the land can send you all the to the other side. You may get more region specific things in the expansion packs, but the version I have doesn't include them.

but all reports say that the main quests aren't exactly engaging... the games are still great, reviews say, but the main quests are lacking. Fun games to play but not to focus on the main story on and actually finish?

I've actually gotten quite far in the main quest, though I've put quite a bit more time into Guild quests and exploration [including treasure runs].

Ah, in the first two you can ask about a lot of things too. Except in Arena it is 95% about 'Where is building X', and 5% 'Can you tell me about any jobs?' or 'Can you tell me about any rumors (read: quests in town, generally fedex stuff early on). Daggerfall gives you a longer list, but it's still a majority about "where are things" and a minority about other questions that they will all either not answer ('what is your opinion on this or that faction/thing') or answer similarly... this is not exactly a strength of the series, I'd say, unless it's changed a lot from the first two... but as I've said, when you are dealing with that much scale, how much can you really do?

In Morrowind you can ask people what their job is, about local people, where to find things in town, what they think about certain things or some of the more important issues, and so on. You're not going to find any engaing conversations in Morrowind, but I've never really felt the need to do so.

[A Black Falcon]

Oh, right, the 'what is your name and information' choice... in Arena you can ask about them and they give you a name and job. The jobs start repeating fairly quickly though... what you say there sounds a lot like the Daggerfall system, and it gets the job done but does not exactly make you want to spend a lot of time talking to people.

Morrowind is a lot like America. There are many different peoples all living together in a single country, but different areas of the country have a larger percentage of one group than another. But in all areas your likely to find at least one person of each group. Each group of people has a certain way of talking about things and beliefs, that's where you get a difference in dialogue. It depends on the race of the person you talk to, not what area you are in. With the quests, it doesn't depend that much on what part of Morrowind you are in since a quest in one part of the land can send you all the to the other side. You may get more region specific things in the expansion packs, but the version I have doesn't include them.

The race of your character too? I'm sure they fixed it from Arena, but that was implemented somewhat in that game... messed up since it wasn't implemented inside buildings (which are all the same everywhere in the world -- yes, I know people don't like High Elves, but in a High Elf city?), but it's there to some degree...

As for the rest, it's hard to explain... I'll probably try some later. :) But I will say that, as I suspected (and expected) from the start, Morrowind is again (like Daggerfall) about evolutionary change, not revolutionary. It's the same TES formula, just with some new features...

Like, in Arena, quests everywhere are essentially the same. Either its being the local FedEx delivery person (you DO know what that means in relation to RPGs, right?) or it's getting the location of special (see: hard) dungeons that have the special artifacts in them (often in other parts of the continent), going to those places, and trying to solve those dungeons... Daggerfall is similar but with a lot more quests that work like that (that is, talk to someone, get them to give you some map which puts a new location on your map, and then go there...).

[OB1]

Yes, because you have been SO helpful in this discussion!

What does GR pwn'ing you have to do with me? :wha:

[A Black Falcon]

What does GR pwn'ing you have to do with me?

As in, you saying anything in this discussion is stupid when you have quite clearly refused to join it.

[Great Rumbler]

There are also quests where you have to find people, places, or informations along with the the ones you mentioned. I'd say it's probably a bit more diverse than the previous titles.

[A Black Falcon]

Well considering that it's newer I'd expect it to be... but nothing revolutionary like nice true dialogues.

[Great Rumbler]

but nothing revolutionary like nice true dialogues.

And having that would suddenly make the game great?

[A Black Falcon]

No, they are already pretty good... and given the game design that would be extremely hard. I mean, compare it to KotOR. In KotOR there is much better conversation, and it's done by having each area be a focused quest. TES is specifically designed to not do that. So, how do you have better conversations? Is it even remotely possible? I'm not sure... but while I know game design greatly limits it I also know that conversation is a great part of RPGs, so I'd still say that it's 'missing'.

[Great Rumbler]

I also know that conversation is a great part of RPGs

I can't think of a single RPG that I've played that allowed for extensive conversations with anyone except a select few, so there's nothing for me to miss.

[A Black Falcon]

You can't look at KotOR and then TES and see what I mean? Umm... sure, KotOR isn't the best RPG ever conversation-wise, but it's pretty good...

[Great Rumbler]

You can't look at KotOR and then TES and see what I mean? Umm... sure, KotOR isn't the best RPG ever conversation-wise, but it's pretty good...

Alright, so there were a some people you could get into deep conversations with in KOTOR, but it was still only a select few, mainly your party members.

[A Black Falcon]

All along the story you could talk with people and get a decent amount of depth... yes, the most is definitely with your party members, but there is a decent amount with a good number of NPCs. That is actually unique to that character...

[OB1]

As in, you saying anything in this discussion is stupid when you have quite clearly refused to join it.

That doesn't make any sense.

[OB1]

The Paper Mario games have the best dialogue out there. Very funny and well-written stuff. None of that over-dramatic fantasy crap.

[A Black Falcon]

Fantasy works for fantasy games, but wouldn't for Mario, I think...

[OB1]

Almost all fantasy dialogue makes me laugh. They take it so seriously...

[A Black Falcon]

But if it's a serious thing, they should be...

[OB1]

That doesn't make it any less laughable.

But hey I get it, I know that's the style. It just makes me laugh at how nerdy fantasy buffs think the LotR movies have such great dialogue and that SW's is lame. SW is doing the same thing LotR is doing: fitting to a certain style. With LotR it's over-dramatic British-accented fantasy talk, in SW it's a mixture of classic 40's and 50's cinema (think Cary Grant, Bogart, etc.) and Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon-style talk. You have to stick to whatever style you're doing in order for it to work. For instance, neither LotR nor SW would work with natural, modern dialogue. It would seem even more silly.

You know, people in the future will see it for what it is. Every idiot today thinks they're an expert movie critic thanks to behind-the-scenes documentaries and plain old cynicism, but when that gets old and audiences start to become a real audiences again, SW will be understood by the general public.

[A Black Falcon]

... what if you like both LOTR and Star Wars? :)

But you're right that neither series would work well if they just used modern dialogue.

[OB1]

I like both, just not LotR nearly as much as SW. I just laugh at the hypocrisy of LotR fans who bash SW.

[A Black Falcon]

Well sure SW is better than LotR, but LotR is good too for sure... and I think the reason that some LotR fans bash SW is because right now LotR is much more widely popular than the prequel trilogy.

[OB1]

Yes, it is much more popular, and for that reason alone much of these blind fools think the way they do.

Star Wars has always been hated by Hollywood and critics (mainly because of how successful it was, and how Hollywood did not directly benefit from it outside of distribution deals), but generally loved by the audience. However in the past twenty years audiences have become more and more jaded and cynical and tried to become more like critics... critics that know nothing about film. You see it everywhere, people commenting on acting, dialogue, directing, cinematography, etc. It makes me sick, seeing all of these buffoons act like they know what the hell they're talking about. Just shut up and become audiences again, fools!

[Great Rumbler]

I enjoyed the new Star Wars movies, they're not as good as the OT but I never expected them to be.