Nintendo wins. Realistic Zelda + NDS is better then you ever imagined

[A Black Falcon]

Ok, so he was also young in LoZ. But he wasn't young in AoL, or LttP, or LA... yes, LttP doesn't make it as clear as LA (with a intro that clearly shows his age), but based on manual art I'd say that he's almost exactly the same age as the LA Link.

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah, though considering he was living with his uncle and is treated like a kid during the game, I'd wajor he was supposed to be a kid there, or at least young teen.

[A Black Falcon]

Not a kid, I'd think... again, isn't his ingame sprite too big?

[Dark Jaguar]

The in game sprites for just about every game back then would make you think pretty much ALL the characters are kids, except for small things. Anyway, Link did seem shorter than the average adult by a bit.

[lazyfatbum]

I'll go for 16 in Zelda 2, but that's still not an adult in the sense of a 'man' like OoT's ADULT Link. As I said, he is the only adult in the series. All other Link's are 'becoming' men, or growing in to puberty. Zelda is always the same age as Link and Zelda's "Time of Destiny" (to be abducted by evil) is when she enters puberty - If she survives puberty, she can give birth to an heir and thus Hyrule will live in peace forever. In OoT, Link and Zelda (as adults) stopped Ganondorf from existing (so he no longer existed in the past either) and kept him hidden in the sacred realm (the future no longer exosted, so Link returned to being a child). Which as we know will become the golden land (the perfect world) that is sealed by the 6 sages and then the Dark World, which exists only because of Ganondorf. Ganondorf and Aghinem (Ganondorf's earthly medium) both said many times "How is it that my plans is disruped by such a young boy?".

In order for Link to be "all grown up" he would have to be atleast 18 in OoT as adult Link. He is seven years older than he was as a child, so do the math.

This next Zelda game, i'm assuming he's an adult (18+). If this is true, then it will be the second time in the Zelda universe that we will play as an adult Link.

[A Black Falcon]

As I said, OoT's "Adult" Link is also a teenager... certainly no older than 18, and 16 is possible. So it's not that big a gap.

Okay, he might be a bit older in OoT than he was in LttP. I don't think we have enough evidence to know for sure either way, really. But he wasn't a little kid in LttP.

AoL? I haven't read that manual, but the ingame sprite is definitely not a child. 16? Maybe.

And finally (it's very clear he's young in Oracles), LA. He is obviously not a kid. How old? It really depends on how you interpret the artwork... but he isn't young. And considering that the game is set as a 'Link went searching for answers after having previous adventures' backstory, the story backs that up...

[OB1]

According to Miyamoto Link is 16 in both OoT and the new Zelda. Here's a quote from the E3 roundtable:

But since then, we've been left with a very big question: and that was, what are we going to do when we decide to make Link a teenager again -- a 16-year-old Link. So after Wind Waker we tried several different models and made varied versions of them. Ultimately we decided that in showing a teenage Link really the best style of expressing him would be something that's closer to our graphical style in Ocarina of Time.

He's 16 in the new Zelda, and he said again referring to OoT. So "adult" Link is just a teenager.

[A Black Falcon]

That is exactly what I've been saying -- there have been only two (unless you argue that LttP's one was under 16, which I'd disagree with) Link ages. ~10 and ~16.

[OB1]

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

[A Black Falcon]

Lazy is.

[OB1]

I'm not lazy.

[A Black Falcon]

Umm... no, I thought you were!

[Dark Jaguar]

lazy, um, your whole puberty thing might work in horror movies, but there's nothing at all in the whole Zelda storyline that says her ability to provide an heir is somehow hinted at as being an important part of the story. I'd HATE for that to be the case anyway, because it's just so shallow. It's not like Ganon kidnaps her for any reason other than her immediate usefulness. I doubt there's any hidden meanings behind the ages at ALL.

Anyway, why would he have to be 18 anyway? He's adult Link, but likely not adult in today's traditional sense. No need to go by today's legal definitions ya know. He is very likely to be about 17 I'd say, considering young Link couldn't be older than 10. I suppose it's possible, but the only age lock needed is that whatever age they both are, there has to be a 7 year difference.

Anyway, 16 is certainly old enough to be considered an adult in that sort of world. That's especially true when you consider that young Link's age in OOT was considered time to be an adult, and he's younger than an adult jew, the youngest human adult there is in the current world!

Anyway, I don't go by the legal definition for these games, since Hyrule doesn't have America's laws, just enough physical maturity to look like an adult, which he does in a couple of games before OOT. LA, that one's odd too. The artwork at the very start of the game clearly shows an adult, but the artwork for the photos is like a detailed version of the in game sprites. That's just different art style I suppose. Anyway, everyone in LA treats him like an adult, and the story in the instruction booklet also makes it clear he's an adult. LA too had him as an adult. LTTP on the other hand, I lean towards him being a kid, or at least an older kid, like 13 or so. Yep, 3 years makes all the difference. You know how fast kids sprout up.

Eh, no matter. The way I've always seen it is like this.

Young Link, innocent and carefree, is thrown into an adventure that is bigger than he could have imagined against a threat he could never have known. He goes through many strange unexpected things and slowly gains a lot more power and wisdom, so long as he keeps the courage to continue in his heart. By the end, overthrowing Ganon himself, he has matured into an adult mentally, in a way that sorta hints at how people actually grow up in the real world, if it was set to the tone of an adventure with monsters.

As an adult, wary of another threat, he leaves on his own to seek out a new adventure and finds it, this time the evil is brought about by his own actions, in a manner of speaking, and he must face off against this new threat unlike Ganon but still evil.

Each Link, by my reconing, has had this same experience. OOT Link had the second adventure as a slightly older version of his young self (likely only a year), but the mind was already set in that state. OOT faced against ganon in his youth, then went on to face against another land's threat, a threat not to himself but to people he didn't know, but wanted to help. From a somewhat "selfish" (in a manner of speaking) saving of the world to a saving of ANOTHER world he doesn't even know.

LTTP Link (if I'm correct in my assumption) after defeating Ganon in younger years (depending on how young he was) and reclaiming the triforce to make his own world right again, set off fearing Ganon's return, and ended up finding another strange world of dreams, where he fought against both his own and the Wind Fish's nightmares. In the end, he finally chose to awaken the wind fish and end the dream, leaving himself stranded at sea to save a stranger.

Hyrule Fantasy Link in his youth defeats Ganon and saves his world which is in terrible ruin. Years later, the world is in relative peace, but creatures still hunt Link for revenge and revival of their master. He finds out about ANOTHER Zelda, unlike the one he saved years ago, in an eternal slumber from long before his time, and despite the danger to himself goes on to save this stranger and reclaim something that he doesn't even need himself.

Anyway, my point is the first adventure for all these Links seems to be saving their OWN world, helping others but also helping themselves, and the SECOND adventure is one to selflessly help another world, or another being, even though they personally could have easily just lived in peace.

[OB1]

Umm... no, I thought you were!

Then why did you act as if I were disagreeing with you, you weirdo?

[A Black Falcon]

I wasn't... it's called "reinforcing ones (previous) statements"...

[OB1]

[A Black Falcon]

As in using your quote to back up my previous post rebutting Lazy. Seems pretty simple to me.

[OB1]

You don't know how to write.

[lazyfatbum]

...He's 16 in OoT? So he's 9 as a kid? a 9 year old!? weird...

DJ, the reason I have the theory of Link and Zelda meeting at the time of destiny before puberty is because in almost every Zelda game you're trying to protect a blood line, if Zelda or Link is actually destroyed the blood line stops but you also have to save anyone related to you or Zelda. In LttP Link has an Uncle and you only get an Uncle because you have a brother or sister. The uncle in LttP was a soldier and this guided me to the theory that Link and Zelda are brother and sister either blood related or by a different mother (The father being the King of Hyrule). But I dont think this is the case anymore. It made sense in LttP but not in other games.

My theories are full of holes and so is everyone elses, it's just the nature of the thing since we're trying to piece everything together.

So here we go (I'll only mention the important ones to the story):

The Legend of Zelda - (Designated as the last official story) I dunno his age here, but there are no towns, the people live in caves, and monsters control the world. In order to fight Ganon, Link must find all 8 pieces of the Triforce of Courage. I think we can assume he's the 9 year old here. He saves Zelda and the people come out of hiding.

Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link - An actual sequel. A side story but with an important plot to the overall Legend of Princess Zelda. Though he saved Princess Zelda as a child, almost a decade later the Princess is put under a spell and Link goes on a journey to save her. This is the first game where we learn about the sages and their temples. Link is 16 here.

The Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past - Now thousands of years in the past (maybe more, see plot outline of WW) we learn of the now ancient story of the sages closing the gate to the Sacred Realm to keep people from going after the golden power (Triforce) and locking Ganondorf inside. Ganon uses the Sacred Realm to create the Dark World and needs the blood line of Zelda to bring his powers in to the real world. Link is guided by Sahasrala (Rauru). Link is 16 here.

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening - (Side Stroy) Crazy stuff. Link has this adventure in his mind, an adventure given to him from a being called the Windfish (the only real thing other than Link in the entire adventure). The Windfish needs Link in order to free him. Now that he's free and without nightmares there's no telling what will happen My theory is that the Windfish is Link's hope clouded by nightmares of Ganondorf and his evil, awakening the Windfish gives Link new hope for the future. Another theory suggests that the Windfish is Rauru (and Sahasrala, who was killed in LttP) The Sage of Light. This is a direct sequel, which means it happens right after the events of LttP. So Link is 16 here too. I mention this story because I think the Windfish (or what the windfish represents) is extremely important to the Legend of Zelda.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (designated the oldest Zelda story) - Now we go back thousands of years again. This is the ancient story in LttP of the sages closing the gate to the Sacred Realm. But Link needs to awaken the sages first. The sages awakened, they send Ganondorf in to the Sacred Realm unknowingly causing the events that will lead to LttP. Link starts this adventure at the age of 9 but is forced to wait 7 years in the Sacred Realm until he's ready to fight Ganondorf. Most of the adventure is played through Link at age 16. Ganondorf's last words - "I will kill you both by destroying your blood lines and killing your decendents!"

The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker - Okay get ready for this. The world is covered in water and the only land are small islands peppered through out the world. This is Hyrule after a huge flood. In the very begining, we're treated to the plot where it says that Link saved Hyrule from the Evil Ganondorf. Many years later, Ganon attacked Hyrule but Link did not appear to save them. The people (shown begging in front of the Triforce) pray for a solution, so the God's freeze time. In Wind Waker The Deku Tree sprout is fully grown and in Hyrule Castle in the dome of frozen time the sages are displayed as Gods and a statue depicting Link as the Hero of Time stands in the middle of the castle great hall so this is after the events in OoT. The only way this story makes any sense is that its part of OoT's time line but way off in the future. The events of OoT are talked about like ancient lore, so then WW's plot takes place hundreds of thousands of years in the future after OoT but BEFORE the events of LttP. Why didn't Link appear to destroy Ganon? Because Ganon only existed in the Saced Realm at this point, he attacked from outside this deminsion, the God's fixed this by bringing Hyrule in to the Sacred Realm. People asked the God's for help, so the God's froze time indirectly by putting Hyrule in a dome of frozen time and bringing everyone in to the Sacred Realm. The people wished for a savior and begged the God's to destroy Ganon and protect them, the Triforce reflected that and created the vast ocean and hide the people in the sacred realm which is now Hyrule 2. Ganondorf exists in the sacred realm, so now Link can rise and fight him! The people are finally getting their wish. Ganondorf wants the real world but can only achieve it by destroying the blood lines of Link and Zelda. All the events that take place above the water never are writen in to the history books because it never actually existed, Link and Zelda defeat Ganondorf in the dome of frozen time, by destroying him, they unfreeze Hyrule and the flood finally dies down, Hyrule castle reamerges and time continues as normal leading to the events of LttP. So WW takes place in a deminsion outside of Hyrule's and while it was hundreds of thousands of years between OoT and LttP it was in reality the blink of an eye because Hyrule was kept frozen until the Hero would appear. It's like the Matrix if you think about it; People have no idea that they're not in the real world though they live in peace. In this story, Link is 9 years old.

Phew.

So now here comes the new Zelda... Link is 16. There's no sign of Ganondorf yet, but there are massive armies, a world of monsters. Link has his horse, so I assume it's after the events of OoT... could it be after the events of LttP? ...could it be the story that will lead to the final step in the Legend? The very first Zelda game says a huge war took place that scared the world... and everything i've seen from the new Zelda paints a picture of a huge war. I wonder...

So, I had it in reverse! Link was a kid in:

The Legend of Zelda
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker

And a young adult in:

Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link
The Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
The Legend of Zelda: The Oracle of Seasons/Ages
The Legend of Zelda: Unknown Title

Gah. Well now it makes more sense to me, but I have a headache.

[A Black Falcon]

Your only obvious mistake is that he's a kid, not a young adult, in Oracles. Yes, the game uses exactly the same Link sprite as LA where he's a young adult, but when you look at the intros it's very, very obvious that this Link is noticably younger than the LA one...

Oh yeah, and I don't know about your WW theory. Seems a bit out there... :)

And I'll just go on the assumption that this game's a sequel to WW until Nintendo says otherwise. I'm not sure that they were lying when they said this game was WW2...

[OB1]

Interesting theory, though I don't think the flood just goes away. Link and Zelda have to search for a new Hyrule at the end of WW, which is most likely the Hyrule we see in all of the 2D games.

[A Black Falcon]

But then how do you explain why the landmarks in Hyrule stay the same, and similar proportional distances apart, in all the games?

[OB1]

That's more of a design thing than a story thing, really. I doubt the developers really cared that much about the Hyrules looking the same or not. Hyrule in WW isn't identical to Hyrule in OoT even though they're supposed to be the same Hyrule.

[A Black Falcon]

Not identical? Okay, but they have enough similarities that it doesn't take too much stretching to say that they're the same... remember all that analysis of maps we did some time ago? :)

[Dark Jaguar]

I KNEW IT! I KNEW that my post wasn't saved when TC crashed! Dangit, okay I'll type it ALL up again, but it BETTER not crash AGAIN when I post it!

lazy, first I'd like to make a point about Zelda 2. There's one other thing you should be aware of. It's CLEARLY stated in the story that the Zelda you see sleeping in Zelda 2 is NOT the same Zelda Link saved in Zelda 1. In fact, allow me to go into that story. Long LONG ago, an old king decided the triforce of courage, more than the other two pieces, could lead to horrible disaster if evil got ahold of it. He decided to lock it up inside the Great Palace in the Valley of Death and set up many other palaces as locks to the Great Palace's gate. This was intended to test the character of any who would seek the 3rd piece of the triforce. Anyway, he cast a spell on all of Hyrule so that the crest of the kingdom would appear on the hand of the one who had these characteristics, but only after they had gone though much experience and reached a certain age. The Link who defeated Ganon in Zelda 1 clearly met these qualifications a few years later. Anyway, he put a scroll with all this information on it in a box along with 6 crystals, which were the keys to the 6 palaces. He left this box in the care of the line of nursemaids as they were the tale keepers and such. Years later, a prince and princess, that princess named Zelda, were in a dispute. You see, that king had died ealier, and the prince had become upset because he knew what that king knew, the location of the legendary triforce of courage (at this point, the fact that it was hidden was a legend), but apparently he had only told Zelda because he knew of the greedy ambitions of the prince. The prince outraged at this hired a wizard and threatened Zelda with eternal slumber if she didn't talk. She refused, so the wizard started casting the spell. The prince immediatly came to his senses and attacked the wizard, killing him, but by then it was too late and the spell was cast. The prince, in grief over what his own actions caused, put the princess in a palace in a small inlet of a lake and declaired that from that day forward, all women born into the royal family would bear the name Zelda (now THAT'S a way to teach a history lesson). Anyway, she had slept for hundreds of years before Link finally had this seal appear on his hand. The Zelda he rescued, while related to the royal family, was not a direct decendent of that Zelda for obvious reasons. Anyway, as Impa told Link of the more recent but still old legend, she then handed him the box from the older legend. The scroll was written in an ancient language Link never saw before, but the spell allowed him to read it (I'm not inferring any of this, including how old these legends are, the story specifically states it all in no uncertain terms). Anyway, Link decided to go forth to save this princess from long ago as well as restore the kingdom. You see, while the kingdom was rebuilding, there was a lot of disharmony. Monsters were also starting to appear in record numbers as though something was attempting to return. The people out of fear became very rebellious, and as a result the nation itself was divided into north and south. The Zelda from Zelda 1, no where to be found in Zelda 2, well, I assume she's trying to restore the nation into a whole like some sort of fantasy Abraham Lincoln.

Regarding Majora's Mask, something tells me that will end up more important to the main story than we all think. I think they're up to something with that... I'll just keep my eyes open there...

Okay, on to Wind Waker. Your theory is interesting, but there are a couple holes you must address. I'll also tell you why I personally hold a different view. First off, I hardly think Hyrule was restored after the game. In fact, the ending makes it very clear it shouldn't be restored. You see, at the end, Ganon tried to restore the land too. He failed in his wish, and the king decided to wish for hope for the future instead. Link and Zelda together defeated Ganon, but instead of dying, he turned to stone for some strange reason, and laughed at a sword in the brain. I'll get to my theory on THAT in a minute. Anyway, Link and Zelda stood before the king while the waters began to flood even the small part of Hyrule that was frozen in time. It would seem that even this small realm saved from that flood would not be spared, as though it ALL had to go. The King made it clear that he had no intentions of fighting this, because he realized something. He realized that desperatly clinging to the past made him like Ganon in some ways. He decided to live for the future, and told the kids to live for the future too. Link and Zelda decide to find a new Hyrule to call home, and the King is happy to hear this, as opposed to them deciding to revive the old Hyrule. However, he makes it clear that whatever new land they find will not be Hyrule, it will be their OWN new land. He then consigns himself to the past, allowing himself to drown in this flood, while Zelda and Link are saved in air bubbles and rise to the surface. They do set sail for a new land, but the old Hyrule isn't it. The old Hyrule is lost forever under the waves, flooding even the previously spared part. I don't think it's in the golden realm because that realm is the dark world now, and it's under the complete control of Ganon. I think it's actually physically under the waves, though frozen in time, due to all the stuff you actually find underwater. The events under the waves apparently happened exactly 100 years after OOT according to Miyamoto (I assume that century difference refers to the first return of Ganon rather than the present era of Wind Waker because with all that history, the present era couldn't possibly be just 100 years later, but the past era with the king COULD be). Anyway, it just seems a better story to be told to live for the future and not cling to the past. Now comes as to why in LTTP no one knew of this. The easy way out is the game wasn't made yet :D, but I'll take the hard and convoluted way out thank you. Consider that just finding out about the imprisoning war required getting the hidden knowledge from the many decendants of the 7 sages. Link didn't really know much of any of the legend before that. They also only told him bits and pieces, as much as they thought he needed to know. Since WW's plot simply didn't effect LTTP's plot, then while they likely knew of that legend, they didn't feel it was worth bothering that Link about. Oh yes, about why all those decendants are human (except Zelda the hylian of course). I think WW explains that rather well. It would seem that the races seem to change over time, changed by their patron diety. The ruto were turned into the rito at a certain point, as the kokiri were turned into the koroks. Likely over time, they became just plain humans, all of them. Regarding those gods, I believe they are lesser gods, created by the main trinity. After all, the goddess of wisdom created wind, air, and the laws that govern it. So, likely all these lesser gods, and the fairies, were created by the trinity to help serve the world and help it form. Regarding the sword, it's clear it was legendary even before OOT. Thus, I think it was actually made either by the goddesses themselves, or by an ancient culture using the triforce which has long been forgotten. Remember, by the time of OOT, the location of the triforce is completely unknown, and has to be accorind to LTTP. All that's known, even by the royalty, is that the temple of time is the gateway to the world where it is kept. Anyway, I say the sword was made by something that powerful because it has to be to be able to actually resist the triforce. One other note. You should know that the gods didn't really spare old hyrule during the flood. They froze some of it in time, but most everyone either drowned or escaped to the new islands. This is why the knowledge of the old kingdom was lost. When you destroy a civilization, the tech tree must be rebuilt, so for a time writing was lost because paper was lost. The people prayed for an answer, and the gods finally gave it in the form of a flood to wash away evil. Sadly, this also destroyed the old kingdom. The king held onto the frozen time bubble, because like that part of hyrule, he too was frozen in time. Eventually though, he let it go and all of hyrule finally faced their fate. The only survivors have their decendants above on the islands.

There are holes created by this, as there were with OOT. What of those portals in LTTP? How were they created? Indeed, legend says the portal Ganon found to the Triforce was on Death mountain. Now, it's clear from both OOT and WW that this is completely impossible. Thus, it's up to us to fix Nintendo's plot holes. I believe that this, as well as the legend in LTTP that the master sword was forged DURING the imprisoning war, is a result of legends becoming twisted and lost over time. Those portals probably came about due to Ganon's attempts to break free, eventually creating an alter-ego named Agahnim, which was actually Ganon's light world avatar. On that note, I do believe that when Ganon broke free in WW and again before that in WW's history, he was using avatars. The first time, it was a super powerful form just to get revenge, but that didn't work. That form was destroyed in the flood. Later, emerging again, he created ANOTHER avatar, this time though he acted more secretly, more carefully, and above all much more QUICKLY, so as to stifle any chance of someone emerging to stop him. This explains why he only turned to stone rather than dust when you defeat him. I believe the avatar was detroyed and his spirit went rushing back to the dark world, thus he actually lived. Anyway, there is the issue of the triforce, and how Ganon got the entirety of it before LTTP. Well, I think WW kinda explains it. Ganon was defeated and the children after a small talk were quickly sent away as time was short before that place was flooded. King Hyrule allowed himself to be taken by the flood. However, what of the triforce? It sat there, forgotten. I do believe that with no owner or housing to hold it in place, it reverted back to it's default location in the sacred realm, where Ganon immediatly was able to claim the whole thing. However, after his defeat, the seal was stronger than ever, so he would have to wait a much longer time. This makes his last words "there is no hope for you" all the more prophetic.

A note about Ganon in OOT. He didn't swear he would break free by ending their blood lines. He swore that one day he would break free and THEN get his revenge. He had to get out FIRST though, and to do that, he snuck out. You're right, in order to break the seal to allow himself to escape, he had to kill off their decendants. Not really needing to end the blood line, but killing the last who have that POWER, before it's passed on. Wind Waker revealed this. The decendants that were still ruto and kokiri died allowing him to escape because the power to send him back hadn't been awakeneed in their decendents yet. They existed, but hadn't awakened. Indeed, I believe that this power to seal can be given to any who are able to recieve it and likely they don't even need to be a direct blood line decendant, and rather become a decendant by the magic-line instead of by blood. I think that's possible anyway, though I go with blood line for WW. Ganon however, after breaking out in WW didn't really care for killing off Zelda and Link so much as claiming the entire triforce, which he seemed to have done. Anyway, the seal is finally completely broken by the time of Zelda 1 and his actual real body is free. This is likely due to that horrible war where he was able to finally kill off most of the decendants.

Eh, anyway I think I covered everything I did last time.

[A Black Falcon]

I'll just say that just because Hyrule is still flooded at the end of WW doesn't mean that they permanantly move to a new Hyrule. As I said, there are just so many problems with that... locations, primarially. If it's a totally different Hyrule, why are so many places named the same things? Why are locations so similar? It just wouldn't make sense that two totally different places would be so amazingly similar physically... sorry, but I just don't agree with that.

Now, it's obvious that at the end of WW Hyrule is flooded with no promise of change, but that doesn't mean that they won't explain it in future games...

Oh, and as for issues with later games, 'WW didn't exist yet' is a good reason. :) Though, that reason also says that the games put in between other titles have a burden on them to explain any changes they make to the series in a way that the other games still make sense. WW did NOT do that. I think that saying 'They founded a new Hyrule' just doesn't make enough sense to say that that's what they did... instead, I can just say that it's left unclear at the end of WW and hopefully this game will help in that respect.

Oh, but I really like the idea that they were avatars of Ganons. It'd make sense, a powerful being like him would likely be able to do such a thing... and it's a MUCH better explanation than trying to explain how he escaped from a realm that according to OoT he could never escape from from the inside.

Though, maybe for the 'hundred years after OoT' they could come up with some more detailed story that says how Ganon could escape... like, someone getting through to him from Hyrule or something, I don't know... but that brings up a question. Did Ganon get out 100 years after OoT, do things, go away, and then return in the WW era or was he out the whole time? I forget...

The main problem for all of this is that Nintendo just doesn't seem to care about the story in this kind of detail, so they make these games with so many plot holes and unexplained events that we're left guessing probably more than we actually know...

[lazyfatbum]

I would say they're nearly identicle. If you use my theory, it makes sense because Hyrule 2 is a reflection of the real Hyrule. I also think Hyrule 2 is what will eventually become the Golden Land.

This also works on a metaphorical scale with the new creatures.

In the story, there are two special people that must find their counterpart and 'activate' the link between them. For the Kokiri tree people you see a young boy who plays fiddle and looks almost like Link. For the bird people, you see a young female Zora that plays harp (Sheik's instrument)

Kokiri: The Kokiri are actual tree-people in WW. No longer the little children we saw. This could be because the Kokiri aren't children, they're forest elves that dont change appearance with age. Without the Deku tree, the elves will die. So they're basically a part of the Deku tree. One of them, the one that gets in the most trouble and plays a fiddle, is related to a Kokiri boy. This Kokiri boy is his 'real life' counter part, still frozen in time under the waves.

The bird people: A side from looking a little bit like the Zoras, they're completely different. But they're a proud people who are extremely important in Hyrule 2 as they are the ones who deliver mail. In OoT, if you talk to the Gossip stones, you learn that the Zoras were once Hyrule's royal messengers during a war and that's why they have a good relationship now with good trade. At the top of the mountain they live on (which is a volcano) a dragon rests. This Dragon is called Volvagia (the Fire Temple boss from OoT) but this dragon now protects the bird people. You learn later that the mountain the bird people live on is actually Death Mountain, more on them later.

Gorons: You only meet them if you do the item trade mini-quest. They're in hiding and you can only tell that they're gorons if you get the camera just right. In the game, they never mention that they're Gorons, but they do say this: "I dont know how I got here... and i dont know how to get home." In OoT, the Goron's were so proud that they didn't want any help from anyone, and slowly their culture was being destroyed - They were losing their grasp on tradition which angered Darunia.

In Goron lore, the Fire Dragon Volvagia was once a protector of Death Mountain's Temple that one day turned evil and killed Gorons, this is why the Mountain was named Death Mountain. The Goron people called on a hero and this hero (A Goron) would carry the legendary Hammer to kill the Dragon, but a Goron hero did not appear. "This is a Goron problem!". Link is the one who carried the Hammer and destroyed the Dragon. Darunia accepted this and though the Goron's have officially lost their since of tradition (an outsider had to help them) they were comfortable in that idea, since they will now live on in peace. The Dragon (a spirit that was made real by Ganon) was laid to rest to return as the spiritual protector of the Fire Temple. Once its body was killed, Death Mountain returned to peace.

Ganon's evil power turned Volvagia in to a monster that killed Darunia (Making him the Sage of Fire). A part of the Prophecy that made the plot in OoT (It would seem that A.) You have to have the Sage blood in your viens and B.) You have to be killed by the Temple's spirit in order to become the sage). Now in WW, Volvagia is a protector once again and this time is being annoyed by a monster - In Wind Waker, the idea is to save the dragon on top of Death Mountain that is being tortured by a monster so it can protect its people. Essentially the same thing you did in OoT; Destroyed the evil essense of the Fire Temple spirit that is now a monster to bring peace back to Death Mountain.

On Dragon Roost island there is a young girl, she loves to play harp and dreams of greater things, a much bigger life somewhere off this island. She gets her wish, and she must contact her real life counterpart, a Zora girl who plays harp.

During this time, you have the Master Sword. But it has no power. By contacting these real world counterparts with their mirror images, you activate the sword. The sword has power in the real world, but in the Sacred Realm it has to find a path in to the real world in order to have it's power to banish evil.

Finally, behind your home island is a cave that is blocked by a stone wall. You destroy it and inside is a whale. It's Lord Jabu Jabu, he talks to you and tells you that he is in hiding and he wants to be left alone. The King (the boat) asks him for the Pearl (the other two you recieved after finishing dungeons) he coughs it up and you leave Jabu Jabu in peace.

In the real world of Hyrule, Lord Jabu Jabu was killed by Ganon. His spirit stays in the Sacred Realm to rest. You had to open his 'grave' and waken him from his resting place.

Examples like these make me believe that WW is a reflection of the real world within the Sacred Realm. And having this world with the same geographics of the real world makes sense.

When you kill Ganondorf, the dome covering Hyrule breaks open, and the water floods in. This is a representation of the real world; You have unfrozen time in the real Hyrule and life can continue as normal for them. But in the Sacred Realm, life continues - These people in WW will never leave the Sacred Realm because they're mirror images, not the real thing.

That's why I said it was really the blink of an eye. Ganon attacks Hyrule from the sacred realm, the God's freeze Hyrule in time, and brings all the spirits of Hyrule in to the Sacred Realm, including Link to defeat Ganondorf. Ganondorf's spirit is defeated and the sacred realm is cleansed which means Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are no longer in danger. They unfreeze time in the real world and the people are saved. There are two worlds now, Hyrule and the Golden Land (Hyrule 2) where the Triforce exists.

In WW's story they said that the hero didn't appear. That Link didn't come to save the day from Ganondorf. But he did in the Sacred Realm. Link did come to save the day and destroy Ganondorf but it was outside the realm of Hyrule.

Now in LttP, they say the Golden Land will become a horrible place because everyone wants the Triforce and a war breaks out. During that war, Ganondorf gains the Triforce and wishes for control of the world, the Triforce then makes the Golden Land in to the Dark World. So the world in WW, is the first steps of the Golden Land.

In LttP, Ganondorf is stuck in the Dark World and we never see him in LttP, so he creates Ganon, an image of his inner self and Aghinem a medium he uses to visit Hyrule and persuade the King.

Damn... my brain is starting to hurt.

[lazyfatbum]

DJ/ Every Zelda is a different Zelda, every Link is a different Link (except for the direct sequels) but Ganon is always the same. Gerudo give birth to a man every 100 years the rest are women. When they brought Ganondorf in to the world (this is from a gossip stone) he casted a spell on the Gerudo so that they would never give birth to another man. Ganondorf cheated death with magic and has existed since his birth for thousands of years because of Koume and Kotake, his mother. An evil Gerudo woman who also uses magic to cheat death (we see her as two people but she is one person split in to two which is why they always fight).

Remember that it's not the actual people that matter, it's the blood lines that really matter. Especially Zelda's. Link's matter somewhat, but he is afterall a creation of the Gods. Link can't exist if there's no evil in the world. Only when Ganon rises to power can Link exist.

Great theories though and thanks for explaining the Zelda 2 story. What do you think of WW's world being IN the Sacred Realm and being the first steps towards the Golden Land?

Using my theory, the King didn't die in the flood. He wanted to be in the flood because doing so, he would return to the real world. The boat himself was an avatar for the real king afterall.

And as for the Triforce (which activated the gate in to the real world) I think the King took it back to the real world along with the frozen spirit of Ganon who created Aghinem to steal it.

We're such nerds. :D

[Dark Jaguar]

Yes we are, but still the thing is, that's much more complicated than it needs to be, and it sorta ignores what Wind Waker seems to ACTUALLY be telling me.

lazy, Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 use the same Link, as does MM and OOT. LTTP and LA are somewhat uncertain, but I'm pretty much convinced that LA and LTTP use the same Link as well.

ABF, regarding LTTP. It has many of the same features, but they are only somewhat similar. The forest is in the northwest for instance, and lake hylia is far different. Death Mountain is a completely different looking place. As to why they have the same names, I believe that's the same reason it's called Hyrule. They kept the memory of the old places. Keep in mind they went in search of a new Hyrule, in that search they were likely trying to find a place with all those terrain features of the old Hyrule of legends. Problem solved if you look at it from that way.

lazy, about Ganon in LTTP. I do believe you DO see him. He IS trapped in the Dark World, and you actually go there yourself to fight and actually KILL him that time, which is how you manage to take the triforce back. The triforce itself states that Ganon is dead. How he came back to life is likely due to someone using the blood ritual to bring Ganon back later on for Zelda 1. Anyway, my point is that the Ganon you face in the pyramid of power is most likely the real thing. His form was permanently twisted into that evil pig demon, resembling the form he took at the end of OOT. That too was his actual body, but it wasn't killed then, just banished. I think only Agahnim was the shadow body, Ganon being the real thing.

About your thoughts on Zelda and Link being related, kinda odd. I mean, having an uncle only means one of your PARENTS has a brother, not you. Link could have been an only child, and it would seem he was.

Going back to wind waker, I suppose your interpretation could in fact work, but it's all a bit much and taking a lot of stuff in a much too indirect way for my tastes. I like things to be much more obvious and direct in the explanations if at all possible.

The game itself never actually hints or tries to tell me that the above world is an illusion or is anything but the reality. The people don't know the truth of their past, but it's not needed for them to continue leaving. If anything, the old or real hyrule is intended to be the fantasy. The rito connection to the zora, if you ask me, was made clear by that ghost. I say ghost because WW states that these aren't images from the "real world", but are ghosts of two decendants that Ganon killed himself. That's what they say too. Why are they the same? I think simply put that valoo is the one who changed them. Valoo is considered a diety, and valoo is the one who gives all of them their wings. When the world flooded, valoo likely decided that the zora could no longer live as they had for some reason, maybe because, as the game states, the waters have no fish, and likely fish can't live there (the man-fish contradict that though, but honestly WW actually says a few times that the waters have no fish so I suppose the man-fish are some magical exception to this rule, breathing air and whatnot).

Now, anyway, your theory is intriguing, but honestly it's far too complicated and from my personal interpretation ignores a lot of what Wind Waker actually says. As for lord Jabu Jabu being Jabun, well the name similarity is there :D. Honestly, in OOT I was under the impression that Jabu Jabu simply left of his own accord after the whole incident. Ganon killing him off may have happened, I'm not sure. Perhaps, as a diety itself, it did leave to parts unknown. It's likely that Jabu Jabu later had a decendant named Jabun. Jabun, even considering the art style, does look a lot different and is in fact a large angler fish at that point. I suspect it is a decendant.

On to volvagia. In OOT, volvagia was never good, always evil. I don't think valoo is volvagia at all.

The koroks and kokiri, well the game itself also makes it clear that the koroks WERE originally the kokiri and the Deku Tree changed them to make them fit for that new world. All signs point not to them being a mirror of hyrule, but to the flood actually being exactly what the game presents it to be.

One last thing, as I said above, the golden land is no more by the time of Wind Waker. It's already completely under Ganon's control, so there isn't really a way to hide a kingdom in there. It's just a bit too much. Perhaps it could work, but the simpler explanation that everything is exactly as the game states it to be works too. I go with that. The LTTP hyrule being very similar in the same types of places is something, but consider what makes them different, and there is a LOT that makes them different. In fact, after beating OOT and coming up with my first idea on the story, I ended up having to think up reasons why LTTP world and OOT world looked so different from each other. I "knew" they were the same, but why were all these places in different parts of the land and further more, completely different sizes and mapped out differently? I just consigned it to the changes of time, meaning that OOT and LTTP were MUCH further apart in my mind at the time, talking millions of years here. However, WW actually solved the problem for me. They had to find a new land, but named many of the features after the old land. That explained all the differences to me. Now then, why is the Hyrule in Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 so different? Indeed, they are much different compaired to EACH OTHER. Even MORE different than OOT and LTTP compaired in fact, with death mountain actually being in the SOUTH in Zelda 2 and the NORTH in Zelda 1 (not to mention being mapped so differently that the game itself makes a small note of it). I also go with the triforce reverting back to the dark world after the flood incident. I don't think the king ever went back to the real world or anything like that. Every single word he says at the end completely contradicts that to me... He seems to be saying "I will forget my old kingdom and look to the future". I almost expected him to throw away his crown as some sort of token for this, but I guess Miyamoto didn't think of that himself. Indeed, if he was actually attempting to return to his kingdom, then they did a heck of a job hiding that fact, with him telling them to find a new land, forget the old land, that old hyrule is lost forever, and finishing it all off with a flood to wash it all away.

[lazyfatbum]

Let the discussion begin!

*turns on winamp*

A'ight, fool. Lemme lay it down, yo.... here it is. Can you dig? I know that you can wonder bread.... the soul is in my USB keyboard especially in the punctuation and the letters A thru Zippity..... and it's all pissed off; Approaching Level Mackin, as in, Mack smackin yo rackety crackety be-HIND, fool. Are you ready? Yeah... If I was a Crayola i'd be the color of retro, if I owned a train station, it would be the Funk-bunk-bo-diggity Express to Zelda Theory Land, I KNOW YOU DIG! Check it: My blackness, awwwww hell! So black.... so right, I'm gonna whip you up a batch of Grandma's special soup, make your magic meter glow like a mother fuck, that right nigga, oooooo snap its gonna hurt yo ass when i'm done dont you doubt it wonder bread, bam! It's like this -

I take it one at a time.

LttP Link, he be sayin shit like "Word, I be trippin from all this Dark Land BOWL shit, nigga. Time for to relax on a raft ride and find me some PT, hell. I'm done with my adventure in Hyrule, now I be finding me some island pussy fo reel."

I might be paraphrasing... But that's how it is.

Now my young friend of questionable gender I ask you up front - point blank wonder bread; Who or should I say WHAT did you fight in Link to the Past in the Sacred Realm? Nigga you best not be sayin no Ganondorf cuz you know you wrong as a mother fuck. That's right, you fightin GANON nigga! All 8000 pounds of his green ass! Check out that staff and that piggly wiggly face that aint no Gerudo mothafucka that be one pissed off dude that shoot bats at yo head. Ganondorf, you see, check this, he be trippin! He cant be existing in no place outside the Dark World or even IN the damn Dark World cuz his green ass be stuck in limbo, word. Which, you see, it works with my theory, it aint no trigonomitry lemme say it in high fidelity: Ganon's spirit all trapped in limbo because dat Link... mmm, and that fine Zelda.... YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DID!?!? ...damn, they done shot Ganondorf in to the Sacred Realm! They killed his body, but not his spirit.... cuz his spirit cant be killed. And in Wind Waker, you fightin his spirit dawg!. My theory is like.... it's like Jesus with a gun. I said it.

NEXT

Awww shiznet you sayin some weird Dark Jaguar language now, certifiably fucked in the head. You said, now I know you didn't say this, oooooo you did! a'ight... "having an uncle only means one of your PARENTS has a brother, not you."

I was like: SAY WHAT! and then Minka walked in and she was all "YO FO REEL!?!?" and I said it that damn DJ bein all crazy! Cuz you know if you have a brotha, or a sista, then one of them havin some babies?? Dat makes you da UNCLE, shiiit dawg i be explaining some stupefying kindergarden stuff yo! My sister have a baby and that makes me the uncle to that baby, I know you know this, so I go on to the next thang word? WORD!

Valoo is a living God. Just like the monsters who guard the temples in OoT. And Valoo be all red and shit, he speak Hylian, he gots his butt on top of Death Mountain! The Goron's themselves explained in OoT that Volvagia was once good protectin the mountain and shit but then flipped and went all Nuckin Futs! Plus Valoo spoke Hylian to you... like he remembered you! If he aint Volvagia then i'm Martha Stewart, somebody bake me a 3 layer cake with a file inside and maybe some Off Skintastic Lesbian Repelent, yunnowutimsayin.

The Man-Fish can talk, write, read and have a social structure. When's the last time you ate something that could read?! D-AAAMN! You trippin.

How can Juban be a descendent of Jabu Jabu when jabu jabu died and the OoT world is frozen beneath the waves? Time is stopped nigga, Jabu jabu cant be goin around all dead in frozen time getting aquatic pussy! He's a fish stick in the freezer, It aint goin on, no way no how, that aint no horse of a different color DOYUNNOWUTIMSAYIN!?

word... many words. Plural, bitch. Wordsssss... like melted poetry in a microwave, warm and rubbery. You cant brown in a microwave, but you can boil water. give that some thought. White pig make me sick.

Koroks.... yeah. See they all different now with all their leafy shit and built in helicopter blades of grassssss.... Blades of grass, they changed so they can fly, blades of grass, go plant seeds of new deku trees on different island so they can spread the word and make the world a better place because without the Deku Tree, all hell breaks loose. But shit not only did the Deku Tree say you look familiar but so did the Koroks! *LIKE THEY'RE THE SAME PEOPLE YOU KNEW IN OCARINA OF TIME* AWWWWWWWWWWWW SHNIZIT!

The Golden Land has plenty of room, cuz you in it! Before that it was just light and space, no land to speak of, no homes, no gardens, no shops or mini games, just smokey whiteness. Now it's got a whole world and an eco system with taxes and strip malls, perfect for becoming the Golden Land. And that King? wonderbread that King told Link and Zelda in Wind Waker to find a new land for themselves because the King was going back to his! And that particular Link and Zelda cant go back to Hyrule, they have to stay there because they be the spirits of Link and Zelda! And like I said, what we saw is Hyrule underwater but it wasn't water at all, it was a shield. Because what we were seein is a representation not a reality. The water was a mofo shield and Link broke it and let time (water) flow in, Hyrule could exist again and the rest is history.

Whutchu think G!? Dig it!

[Dark Jaguar]

Well, I had a hard time translating that, but I see your point there. Also, that was frickin' hilarious!

One thing, I was saying "you" as though you were Link, not the uncle. Link himself doesn't need to have any brothers or sisters. His mother, OR father, whichever, just needs to have a brother. So, Link can easily be an only child even though he has an uncle. THIS AIN'T NO KINDERGARDEN STUFF G! Nuts, I said it, and you WANTED me to do it, and you did that specifically for the purpose of making me do it! Shut up!

Anyway, my thoughts on Jabu Jabu were more along the lines of Jabu Jabu having left, not having been killed, and had a decendant who later returned to the flooded world. Consider my viewpoint and it makes sense. That viewpoint being that the people on the islands are the decendants of everyone from old Hyrule. That comes from me thinking, as the text led me to believe, that only SOME of hyrule was stored in a time bubble, and the rest was really and truly flooded.

Anyway, it's clear you really want to go with this theory, so I won't really argue it with you. I have my ideas on what's going on, and you have yours. Just keep in mind those problems I found with it.

Also, it's funny you cranked up the music there, because I was playing some music myself but had to shut it off so I could think straight. It kept distracting me.



Here's one note, not about our conflicting interpretations of things, but a whole other kettle of man-fish (all I said was those freaky fish were certainly not what they were talking about when they said it was a fishless sea ya know). That Tower of the Gods. That thing is completely and totally cool, but it also raises some interesting questions. I mean, the thing comes out, and you see this circuitry stuff on it glowing like all the ancient structures that come out of the sea in Megaman Legends, which were in fact ancient robots filled with robots. As you go through it, you face standard wizrobes and slimes, and eventually face off against a good ol' fasioned fantasy boss monster, the giant holy robot of the gods. Now, at first I thought it was circuitry but circuits for magic, but then I accidently fell into a big pit of exposed circuits and electrocuted myself, thus pretty much proving to myself, nope, it's a giant super futuristic computer that the gods created, because, you know, they are all smart. Force field bridges and robot servants and a big ol' robot guardian complete with computery sound effects. So, where did all that tech come from? As I said above, I'm thinking the gods created it. I highly doubt that the people at any time between OOT and the tech collapse during the flood managed to get to that level. If they did, I think it would look something like this:

Setting: *located in high tech lab in city full of flying cars and floating buildings*

Hyrule Scientist: Fellow scientists, we have finally found a way to convert our entire society into pure energy!

Other scientists: Hurray!

One other scientist: Wait a moment, first I would like to show you all a new beverage I invented.

First scientist: Hmm *reads label* Wisky? Alright... *drinks*

Civilization: *explodes*

There's that idea, or there's the one where the gods created it as an automated testing grounds, which is what it is. Why make it be a large magical computer full of magical robots? Well, it looks cool.

[lazyfatbum]

Hehe go to Overclocked Remix and get these tunes:

Ben Cousins - Zelda: Link's Awakening - Lost Woods
Ben Cousins - Zelda: Link's Awakening - Animal Village
Scott Peebles - Zelda: Link's Awakening - Mysterious Groove

I started playing them for some zelda inspiration and it made me reach level 11 in my blackness when i'm usually hovering around 7. To give you an idea of my numbered system, Eddie Murphy has level 10 blackness, James Earl Jones has level 6. So there you are.

That tower is pretty weird now that you mention it...

It came out of the ocean... in my theory the ocean is the wall between reality and the Sacred Realm. so it could be that the tower came out of the real world. Wasn't it called the Hero's Tower? It was a tower to test Link that's for sure... and it's strange tech makes me wonder if it's simply from the future OR in a cool twist, from the distant past when technology at that level existed. Either way, it seems very out of place in a magical realm... and at the end of the tower, you fight a mechanical boss.... a boss that has been waiting for you.

It must be an ancient testing ground to find and aid the hero and is the only structure in the Zelda universe to have such technology. But if the God's built it, it wouldn't need technology... so this structure must have been built by man or is a representation of something built by man.

Can you think of anything from any Zelda game that resembles in some way to the tower dungeon?

All i can think of is the tower from Link's Awakening (where the boss is the giant bird) and the tower in LttP on Death Mountain (with the annoying catapilar boss)... dude come to think of it.... alot of the dungeons have strange technology... like warp plates, switches and conveyer belts... All the temples and dungeons are older than Hyrule itself.... woah....

There was once advanced technology in Hyrule! :question: :question:

[Dark Jaguar]

That's exactly what I was thinking! I mentioned it a while ago in reference to things like the Water Temple in OOT, what with those crystal switches and of course the legendary hook shot. Those teleportation tiles I still think are magical in nature, but things like the conveyer belts and such, and everything else, just reek of some ancient lost technology from an era before OOT. THAT is likely where the Master Sword was made! I still think that magic clearly exists, but it's not some sort of scientific explanation for it or anything. Anyway, yeah, the Tower of the Gods (that's what it was called, though it is a testing ground for the hero) may very well be older than OOT. It had existed for the hero of winds but likely the "lesser gods" just had no idea what was meant by that, so it sat there waiting... Maybe... Actually I'm still thinking it may have been made by the gods after OOT, that tower specifically anyway. As to why it's so technological, well consider that the planet itself is a sort of technology. It still reeks of magic, but it's also technology. It's not like technology is countrary to gods or anything, they may have inspired a lot of it. As to the ancient ruins from before even OOT that are filled with their own technology, likely there truly was an era long lost.

BUT THERE IS MORE! The fantasy world of Zelda in OOT seems to be just on the verge of something like our industrial revolution. There are plenty of buildings using electricity. There are neon lights AND juke boxes even! It's likely that electricity is only understood enough to create some very simple stuff for entertainment purposes only. In LA, there is even a simple telephone system. Now, that was a dream world yes, and that could have been a gag, OR it could be memories of that Link and his kingdom he sailed from having just invented that before he set sail. Indeed, Zelda is the only fantasy world that while staying fantasy, actually seems to be TRYING to advance their technology. They even have created explanations for why it would be around the same level in each game, TOTAL CIVILIZATIONAL COLLAPSE.

Something to think about, just remember it doesn't really ruin it because, well, a bow is high technology too.

Also, there's that compass that can detect chests.

One note. As a kid, playing Zelda 1, I always thought the "magical boomerang", the blue one, was actually some super high tech device due to the little part of it that looked like a small computer chip.

[lazyfatbum]

Haha the compass does raise some issues with the technological state of Hyrule.

I'll bet you we're on to something. Technology in nature as to how the world works and keeps on functioning is one thing, but comparing that to electricty being used to power monolithic robots or sustain a building? Somethings wrong! something's bad wrong! ...it's badong!

[lazyfatbum]

You mean the little discolored part? That's just a design:







But yeah, I thought the same thing too :D Not a chip, but a button you press before throwing it so it would go all the way to the other side of the sreen before coming back. None of the new Zelda's have the magical boomerang. Though WW's boomerang is awesome.

[alien space marine]

Link tossing Toilet seats!

LOL!

[Dark Jaguar]

Not really, so long as it's not the average level around the kingdom.

Ya know, I wouldn't mind a Zelda taking place in some technological era once. I mean, not as the standard, but just a small change of pace for one game.

Oh and, yeah I know it's part of the design, but it's easy to see it looking like a device when it's all blue like that :D.

The WW boomerang is pretty nice. I will say the hookshot is flawed in that it makes things too easy. I like to have to figure out what the hookshot will stick in or not on my own, not have the thing suddenly light up when I happen to point at the right answer. The OOT hookshot was perfect. The only light it had was an indicator of if the hookshot could reach that far, but not if it would actually work.

Speaking of, while I managed to find a way for LTTP to work in another land (which I still totally believe is the case after WW), I forgot one thing, the dark world. Well, maybe it's not a MAJOR thing, but it's rather odd that the place where Ganon would set up his domain would be RIGHT where the NEW kingdom is rather than where the old one was... I mean, I could just take it that Ganon moved his evil army to the location to make it easier to cross into new Hyrule when the time came, but still... Eh, anyway, the portals around there linking that particular region are interesting...

Oh! What if the new Zelda, which MAY have an adult hero of Winds as the main character, when they find that land that is perfect for the new country, they find some strange link to an odd world, and find that Ganon found this exact place himself and is trying to invade using the strange portals? They might end up having to go on a quest to seal up the 8 portals to keep Ganon in, and it's all like, the 8 portals need to be sealed by like, going into dungeons and finding sealing crystals! And, those crystals turn out to be the key in LTTP for him breaking out! Oh wow!

Nah, I'm full of it. Anyway, on to the mystery of the ancient technology. It's likely this ancient kingdom had learned of what the future held. They knew the future wasn't set in stone though, and thus they would set up many places using their vast technology for the heros they saw in their dreams, hoping that with the chance they provide, things could be different. You know, something like, the further one looks into the future, the hazier things get as there are far too many differnet possibilities for anything to be certain. Fate is not a single river, but rather the miriad of paths created when a hammer strikes ice (LOVE that quote, if anyone can name where I got that line, I will give them a digicookie). Eh, anyway they likely created these ancient structures not JUST in Hyrule, but also all over the land for the various heros that would need them. This imaginary ancient civilization wouldn't DIRECTLY contradict the stories, as eventually the various incarnations of Hyrule would find these dungeons, learn their traps, and decide to establish them as their own sacred places, so that Zelda 1's story of Zelda hiding the triforce shards in 8 underground places makes sense. The labyrinths being made by some advanced civilization would be cool. However, they likely didn't JUST have high techology, but also high magic, using them both as one. You know, intertwining nature and technology as we will HAVE to do on Mars one day (Mars doesn't have the ability to hold an atmosphere on it's own even if we did create a working one, we'd have to constantly keep it alive).

[A Black Falcon]

Those buildings in OoT with power are inexplicable in the context. They have no power generation, no power lines, no power plants... so it's got to be magic running them, not electricity. Or magic-powered electricity. :)

Oh, and as for your 'they find a new land', isn't one hint when something isn't going to work when the theories you have to use to keep it justifiable get so convoluted that it seems to be nearly impossible to actually happen?

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah, that is a hint, but lazy's doing the same thing. Really though, I go with that because that seems be exactly what WW is saying. Ya got a point though.

Now, I wouldn't say that OOT's temples actually had electricity, but still they had some very advanced mechanical stuff, like the water temple seemed to have hydrolics up the wazoo. The only one I've seen that actually HAS to be using electricity is that tower of the gods. That one, I'm guessing that it's either generated by magic, like some sort of lightning crystal (as you suggest) or it's some super advanced generator we can't even fathom. Now if the gods made it, there's one reason it would be tech rather than pure magic. The same reason creatures like the humans operate purely on scientific principles, while other creatures operate on magic like the fairies. The will of the gods that there should be a balance of the universe they themselves created and magic, the energy of the gods. Something like that...

[A Black Falcon]

Yes, it does also apply to Lazy's theory. :)

Oh, sure, I know that the "the developers didn't care" explanation is a bad one when you want to explain things. But it really DOES seem that a lot of the aspects of this series are explained by it, unfortunately. I really wish that Nintendo had paid more attention to the story and continuity...

So I think that that was Hyrule. What the game says is what happened. And things like how Ganon got out? Unexplained (though that 'Avatar' theory is easily the best one I've seen...). I hope that the next game keeps up telling a better story, like WW, but I'd also like more attention to continuity... Zelda games have never paid a whole lot of attention to the details of it, and it shows...

[A Black Falcon]

http://www.cube-europe.com/news.php?nid=6547

Zelda director.

[Dark Jaguar]

That's interesting. Never heard of Marvelous, but I suppose it's a Japan only game.

Really, they have always tried to expand on the Zelda storyline, and stick to it with their games. However, you are right, the details, the little details, are the things they tend to ignore. Fortunatly, I have yet to see some continuity error that is such a major plot hole that a reasonable explanation can't be thought up. Castlevania actually has the same issues come to think of it...

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, they make the big events pretty much line up, but the little things... not even close, as this thread proves. :)

[Dark Jaguar]

Well close, but certainly they stick out enough when you close in on them as to warrent needing to come up with an explanation. Per-game, the stories are all pretty much seamless, it's just the clash of those little details. The problem I see is that when they make a game, and the story, though attention is payed to making the story make sense to everything BEFORE, they never really allow for "back doors" or open parts so they can easily slide in another storyline before or after it. It's too "enclosed", so the next game has to struggle to fit.

[A Black Falcon]

Seamless? Like how they have electricity in the middle ages? :)

And they don't always even consider the major things -- like WW left out the part about how Ganon escaped...

[Dark Jaguar]

"The middle ages"? This is a complete fantasy world ya know, so they can have technology at whatever level they want. This world is NOT Earth. It's not "a mythical take on the past of our world", so they never once have to consider how that ended up in our world's present, because our world's present will never occur in that world, at any time in the future.

[A Black Falcon]

Even so, it's got to be magic because I don't see any kind of power generation or transmission, as I said... :)

[Dark Jaguar]

Well of course it's magic, and you do realize most of that thing is hidden under the waves, and this is much higher tech anyway so a generator doesn't need to be shown anyway.

Plus, it's a lot cooler if it's just powered without a large generator pumping away next to it.

[A Black Falcon]

Um, but if it's really THAT much higher tech, wouldn't they use it for more than just some stores? :)

[Dark Jaguar]

Oh, you weren't talkinga bout the tower of the gods...

Okay, that's just plain ol' technology, and very primitive by our standards, but advanced for them. As for generators, they probably have soemthing there. They don't need to show it all in those stores. I mean, you don't see generators around your house, but they are THERE. For those stores, in those cities, there is likely some small power generators for personal use, considering they aren't advanced enough to make a grid (all things considering, I can see neon lights being invented before filiment lights, and thus the idea of an electric light replacing candles wouldn't really be considered if they only had neon). They would probably just use some sort of chemical thing for the power in the back room, likely VERY inefficient whatever the source. They do know how to burn a bit more than gun powder anyway, I think... Eh, no need to go TOO far into that though. Just take it that they have some sort of really basic generator used to power very small and merely novelty type things, like neon lights and the ol' victroli. Heck, they might even be using a big sack of potatos to make the electricity, or something similar :D.