the debate that almost ruined my Metroid thread

[A Black Falcon]

I like some idea of where to go in a game... or at least some idea of what area I should be in where I can find the place to progress...

[OB1]

:shake:

[A Black Falcon]

The original Metroid is annoying.

[OB1]

*tsk tsk tsk*

[Great Rumbler]

The original Metroid is annoying.

:shake:

[A Black Falcon]

In that figuring out where to go takes a long time, and there aren't many save points and it doesn't save everything so if you quit it'll take a long time to remember where you were or where to go next...

[OB1]

Man... you suck. At everything.

[A Black Falcon]

I'm sure there are a lot of games that if you played I'd say that to you at too, you know... and Metroid is a confusing game! It doesn't seem to be super hard or anything, it's just confusing and directionless...

[OB1]

Ok so you suck at nonlinear games. And I mean really suck!

[A Black Falcon]

I don't play that many of them... of any genre... and similarly I like a 'point'. Playing Diablo II in multiplayer just to level up and get items seems dumb to me. Likewise Tetris is boring... I like to be able to win. :)

And I am hardly awful at these games. I just am not as good as you...

[OB1]

Yeah, Metroid is just so much like Diablo! You play forever online with buddies, the whole point is to level up, there's no real objective, you can't "beat" the game...

They should just call it Metroablo from now on! Because whenever a game doesn't have a straight path to the end of the game, it's EXACTLY like Diablo!

[A Black Falcon]

No, it's not... but I think there is some kind of similarity between 'non-linear' and 'non-advancement' (ie no winning)... and I was being very general -- not just Metroid but also some non-linear RPGs... though I didn't mind Torment because I knew that if I did enough quests I'd eventually get to the point where I could move on to what is next. :)

[OB1]

Soooo.... because you don't just run from left to right non-stop, a game has no point to it.

Usted sir, es un idiota.

[A Black Falcon]

No, I said that non-linearity is okay if done right and if you are given a reason or some kind of clue to progression... like Fallout -- you can do anything you want but the main story is nicely laid out. Or Torment. :) But in a action game, I'd rather it was like Prime and they had a general 'head in this direction' thing. Fusion was admittedly a bit strong on the hand-holding.

And you've got to admit that the original Metroid is pretty obtuse at times.

[OB1]

God forbid you have to explore in a game. That'd be terrible!!

[A Black Falcon]

Come ON! How about reading what I say and actually "thinking" about it before you draw conclusions based on cursory glances at it! I didn't say and its pretty clear that I didn't mean that. Think first, OB1. You really need to work on that.

Though if you haven't played Torment or Fallout my comment wouldn't make sense, I guess. Oh well. That's your problem, not mine.

Oh, and Prime doesn't hold your hand that much. It does that WAY less than 99% of games in the genre, by far... its not like it gives you much help at actually GETTING to your destination...

[OB1]

I read what you said, and you cleary hate exploring and having to find your own way in games. Don't even try to deny it, you only make yourself look like a fool. You complain about getting lost in Metroid and Zelda on a weekly basis!

[A Black Falcon]

Or maybe I just like to complain... :) (I do, I admit it...)

After all Zelda is my favorite console series and Metroid Prime is my second-favorite Cube game... I don't "hate" exploring. I didn't hate the original Metroid. I didn't finish it, by far, but I didn't hate it... with more savepoints and some kind of thing that reminds you where in the world you should be going next it'd be great... having to wander around the whole map near-randomly looking for places that use what ever your latest ability is is pretty annoying.

Sure I'm not great at a lot of games, I just like to play them... and yes they often do take me more hours than is 'average'. Oh well. Though it'd be quicker if I didn't stop every time I got really stuck, but I've been doing that for years... I sometimes look at FAQs but for things like this boss in Metroid Prime that doesn't help. I know what to do, after all... well, except for the part about not getting hit much when the thing comes at me...

Oh, and Jedi Knight is my favorite FPS. It has a lot of puzzles and levels that, while definitely linear (mostly), are frequently obtuse and often make it pretty hard to figure out where exactly you continue... you know which part of the level you should be in (well, usually...), but not how to progress. Puzzles really. That's one of the top reasons I love that game...

Without an automap it'd be REALLY hard. Oh, and the first half of Torment is very non-linear, and you have no idea of what your "goal" is for a while into the game and for a while after that you don't know what to do to move forward on it, but I loved that game from the start...

My point is that (in general now!) I just dislike these things when either A) the save system is bad or very inconvenient (hey I played PC games before console, I'm used to having decent save systems...), or B) (well usually AND B...) it is too nonlinear and they give you absolutely no clue of where you should be to continue. That second one isn't that common you know... it's mostly a problem with older stuff like the first two Metroids. Or the first Zelda, it's a really good game but with a better map it'd be more enjoyable I'd say... same with Final Fantasy Adventure.

Oh, and any FPS without an automap gets an automatic minus in my book.

[OB1]

Ask any long-time Nintendo fan and they'll tell you that Prime is a lot better without the stupid help thing. Just look at how upset DJ was when she thought it was forced. It makes the game way too easy and removes the fun of exploration.

[A Black Falcon]

You could probably do the game without the help, true, but there were a few points where I was definitely happy to have it...

[Great Rumbler]

I turned off the help mode in MP as soon as I found out about it. Although I did turn it on once or twice when I wasn't sure where I was supposed to go next and had already spent a long time looking.

[Dark Jaguar]

LL and I also turned it off after finding out about it, but it took us longer to find out about it I think. It's just not obvious that that's what "hint mode" does. It SHOULD be, all things considering, but too many games before Prime considered in-game tutorials on how to do things as you came across them to be "hint mode" so I just left it on assuming this game was the same way. I just assumed the global scanning was just part of the game up until I was informed that WAS the hint mode. Unfortunatly that was AFTER I beat the game. Fortunatly, I rushed through rather quickly anyway and it seems the hint mode is based on a timer, so most of the time I was figuring out where to go on my own, and when the hint mode did pop in it just told me to go where I was already heading, or meantioning a nearby room with a save spot in it. While I really HATE that Retro didn't either set it as defaulted to off, or better yet, explain what exactly it was, I'm glad the hint mode ended up not really spoiling anything.

[A Black Falcon]

I don't understand why you hate it so much...

[Dark Jaguar]

Stop doing that!

[A Black Falcon]

What? Ask why you act so outraged that it wasn't a more obvious option? You'd only react so strongly to the idea of it being on if you disliked it!

[OB1]

*sigh*

[A Black Falcon]

How could I assume anything else given the tone of DJ's post...

Oh horror oh horror it gave you a few hints on where to go, great reason to get so mad...

[OB1]

:stick:

[A Black Falcon]

:hammer:

:bang: :bang:



:(

:bang: :bang:



:hammer:

:bang: :bang:



:starwars:



:hammer:

:bang: :bang:

:shake: :troll:



:mm:

:mmx:

[A Black Falcon]

Did you like my story?

[Dark Jaguar]

But I wasn't in some huge angry rant at all. I don't see how you interpreted that way. I camly and precisely listed my problems with the system and you seem to think I'm being angry about it. As I said, I don't have a problem with the system except that it's on by default and it isn't explained exactly what it is.

[A Black Falcon]

LL and I also turned it off after finding out about it, but it took us longer to find out about it I think. It's just not obvious that that's what "hint mode" does. It SHOULD be, all things considering, but too many games before Prime considered in-game tutorials on how to do things as you came across them to be "hint mode" so I just left it on assuming this game was the same way. I just assumed the global scanning was just part of the game up until I was informed that WAS the hint mode. Unfortunatly that was AFTER I beat the game. Fortunatly, I rushed through rather quickly anyway and it seems the hint mode is based on a timer, so most of the time I was figuring out where to go on my own, and when the hint mode did pop in it just told me to go where I was already heading, or meantioning a nearby room with a save spot in it. While I really HATE that Retro didn't either set it as defaulted to off, or better yet, explain what exactly it was, I'm glad the hint mode ended up not really spoiling anything.
__________________

You really HATE that they didn't make the option more obvious. It's unfortunate that you had to play through the game with it on. It is fortunate that you went fast, because it didn't actually help much. Horribly enough (you imply with words) you only found out which option it was AFTER beating it...

Erm, this is pretty straightforward here folks... if that isn't an angry rant, nothing is.

If you aren't angry why use so many very negative terms about it being on? You sound really annoyed that you had to play with it on when (you imply) the game would be so much better and more fun with it off... I just don't get that...

But that whole post (like several you've done like that before) sounds, to me, somewhat outraged that you played with it on when the game would be SOOOO much better with it off. It makes no sense at all.

But that's your opinion. You must really love getting lost with no idea where to go in games, I guess... But going back and acting your statements didn't mean what they so clearly did? Now that's just stupid.

[OB1]

This place really bores me sometimes... just endless circles of BLAH.

[A Black Falcon]

didn't like my smilie story? :(

[OB1]

No I mean all of the arguing... so tiring

[A Black Falcon]

Ah... yeah, it can be... but overall I'd say it's probably more good than bad. Forums withou arguing seem to lose focus on games even easier than we do...

[Dark Jaguar]

How, how did you get angry ranting out of that?

Ugh, just never mind. I wasn't the slightest bit annoyed talking about that, and was just stating my opinion on it (yes it WAS negetive, and I DO dislike how they did it, but I don't hate it with a fury like you seem to think). However, I AM annoyed that you would take it that way and rather than just say "oh, my mistake" you say "I don't believe THE PERSON WHO SAID IT IN THE FIRST PLACE".

I didn't imply that it was some horrible thing. You read it that way. That's the entire problem with the written word. A HUGE amount of communication comes from HOW something is said, not just the words alone, and I guess that ABF can't see any way to say that other than angry ranting.

No matter, just let it be ABF. I really don't want this to be an issue. I do NOT want to argue about this, and I won't, because I didn't say that with any intention of "starting" anything.

(Actually ABF, the threads without arguing tend to be much happier and livelier than the ones with it. At least, that's the impression I get.)

[A Black Falcon]

How, how did you get angry ranting out of that?

'angry rant' might be a slight over-exaggeration, but your intent was very clear, and not just in interpretation but also in the words you used.

And I quoted how! How do you propose I explain your statements?

Look, when you say how upset you were with it on and how you disliked playing with it on and how you would way rather it be off and how you hated how they didn't make it more obvious then there is only one sane conclusion I can draw!

(Actually ABF, the threads without arguing tend to be much happier and livelier than the ones with it. At least, that's the impression I get.)

I got to other forums and like this one best because issues aren't just dropped soon after starting the discussion most of the time. It's nice.

[Dark Jaguar]

Interpret it as what it is! It's a negative opinion with my reasons for why I think so! YES it's negative, because like I said, I'm explaining why I don't like it. You seemed to have interpretted it as mad ranting (though you think now that it's an overreaction, which I hope you realize was my entire problem, you WAY overreacted). It's my opinion on the function and I did it in a very calm way! That's what I was going for in fact.

[A Black Falcon]

You sound angry at something in the post... not a specific target but just in general... 'rant' might be a bit strong though. It definitely didn't sound very calm. :)

So... instead of that how about explaining how it is so awful? I can't see why it is a problem to have it on... you say that you do not like it, but explaining why? You didn't do that.

[Dark Jaguar]

Well, that's a matter of interpretation resulting from a lack of actually saying it, inflection and such. I would have said it in my normal nerdy way like I'm describing an inch worm or something, though you've never heard that so you wouldn't know. No, I wasn't angry at anything.

I explained the flaws in the system assuming it was understood why it's a problem to have it on. The reason is simple. I don't like getting hints. I've been taught this "gamer's code" of sorts by my mother, who, loving to play pc style adventure games and RPGs, would NOT take ANY advice of ANY kind no matter HOW stuck she was. I am the same way now, and I wouldn't change that for anything. Nothing's like knowing you did something or solved some puzzle without ANY help whatsoever. The hint system is similar to a few games I've played, PC adventure games, where there's a hint keeper or something of sorts built in. I'd avoid using it no matter HOW frustratingly stuck I was, most of the time, ONLY resorting to a hint if I had been stuck for a long LONG time, I'm talking 3 days to a week or more here. You see, that's my problem. I wanna solve things myself, no help at all. "Not a WORD or I'll send you kids to bed right now!" as my mom once said :D.

[A Black Falcon]

Huh... I don't like being stuck for long periods of time. If I get stuck in a adventure game and can't figure it out fast enough I'll go look it up in a FAQ. Wandering around over and over trying to solve a puzzle based on something you probably either missed or are overlooking isn't very fun... and neither is running around without a clue where you're going. Except in Metroid, unlike an adventure game, you've got to deal with enemies as you do it so it's even a bit worse.