An homage to the greatness of Simcity 4

[alien space marine]

Did they refund money to people who bought PTW?

[A Black Falcon]

I think there might have been a limited-time discount or something...

[EdenMaster]

Apologies to Great Rumbler, for turning your SC4 thread into a Civ III thread. If it makes you feel better, I created a Civ III thread a while ago. You could dig it up and start a SC4 discussion there, if you like!

[Great Rumbler]

My poor thread.

...

IS NOTHING SACRED?!

[A Black Falcon]

Civ is better than SimCity anyway... :)

[Great Rumbler]

Says the person who hasn't played Simcity 4.

[A Black Falcon]

I don't need to to know that Civilization is a better series...

[EdenMaster]

Unfortunately, GR, I'm afraid that Civ III is a better game, if you ask me. Yes, I've played SimCity 4 and it's a very fun game, but it simply cannot hold a candle to the greatness of Civilization.

[A Black Falcon]

Civ just has so much MORE. Oh, they're very different games, but Civ has more. Than just about anything, really, if you want to use all the depth available to you...

[Great Rumbler]

Well I say SC4 is better, so where does that put us?

[A Black Falcon]

At me wondering how much you've played the Civ series, that's where.

[Great Rumbler]

ABF needs to learn that his views aren't always entirely accurate.

[A Black Falcon]

Sure, some groups would like Simcity more, namely those tha hate games with fighting, or hate strategy games, or hate slow-paced strategy games... but for people who like all those things... I just don't see how anyone could like Civ more... as I said, Civ just has so mure more to the game. Exponentially so from SimCity. It's deeper, more complex, more varied, far more interesting...

But answer my question. Have you played Civ II/Alpha Centauri/Civ III a lot?

[Great Rumbler]

Are you trying to imply that my opinion is WRONG? Because that really does sound like what you're wanting to say.

[A Black Falcon]

I won't form a more specific opinion until you answer my question, obviously...

[Great Rumbler]

In answer to previous question: No, I have not, except Civ 1.

Although, that isn't the point at all.

[A Black Falcon]

Wha... er, that is EXACTLY the point! Exactly! My point was that since you put down the Civ series I didn't think you'd played it much. I was exactly right. You are being absurd. I mean, you are acting like it's fine to say that one game is better than another with what clearly looks like not nearly enough information on one of the games you're judging...

Oh, and Civ actually in some ways is a lot like SimCity. Just today or so Gamespot added SimCity (original) to its 'best games ever' list... in the article they say how SimCity was an influence in Civilization, and I see it. Both games are big and open, with no one way to progress and nothing forcing you to do anything. Civ obviously is martial, but you can be peaceful if you want... you can build your civilization however you want, like a city in SimCity. Civ is a quite different game of course but I can see the influence... Civ just has so much more to do, and so much more variation (the biggest problem with SimCity is that after a little while all the cities start to blend together...)... I like SimCity, but Civ is a noticably better game.

Oh yeah, and just like SimCity the first Civilization is by far the worst...

[Great Rumbler]

So you're condeming my opinion because I haven't played the later Civ games and yet you haven't played Simcity 4 easily the best and biggest in the series? What?

[alien space marine]

So you're condeming my opinion because I haven't played the later Civ games and yet you haven't played Simcity 4 easily the best and biggest in the series? What?

Nearly got sim city 4. I got starcraft battlechest instead.

[Great Rumbler]

SC4 is easily as much fun as SC2000 and also just easily a much better and bigger game. There's a lot of stuff to do that's not in the other games, especially if you have the expansion pack, which I do.

[A Black Falcon]

GR, you are making a flawed arguement. You see, you haven't spent much time with any Civ game and have only played the first and noticably worst game in the series. It'd be like kind of like judging SimCity based on a short play of the first game. Badly flawed.

And of course the other thing that shows you wrong is how I have spent a lot of time playing the first three games in the SimCity series, and many other related Sim games, while you have none of that with Civ-style games... so no, my comments and yours are nothing alike in assumption. Sure SimCity 4 is the best in that series but I very much doubt that it's changed so much from 2 and 3 that the series plays totally differently...

But you wouldn't really understand my point until you spend a good long time with Civ II, Alpha Centauri, or Civ III.

[Great Rumbler]

I still stand by my opinion that Simcity is better than Civilization, and you'll just have to deal with it because it is, afterall, my opinion.

And you say OB1 doesn't respect people's opinions...

[A Black Falcon]

He doesn't. And if you had made a informed opinion, backed by reason, I would respect it. But when you make an arbitrary one based on near-complete lack of facts and bad logic? I'd be nuts to!

[OB1]

I respect everyone's opinions, just as long as they present them as opinions and not objective fact, like you and DJ do sometimes. Well, you do it almost all of the time.

[Great Rumbler]

Why are you so concerned about whether I think SC is better than Civ or not? And, to tell the truth, the only reason I'm saying this is because you said Civ was better and since I'm currently in love with SC4 I decided to support it. It's your own fault I'm doing this!

[A Black Falcon]

Look. It's fine to say that you love SimCity, and SimCity 4 in specific. That much is obvious. But somehow Civ came up... I said that I've played both serieses a lot and see similarities but I think Civ is definitely better. It's fine for you to say that you like SimCity more than me, and don't get bored eventually doing what seems to me to be similar cities over and over (and never being able to 'win', something that definitely matters to me)... but saying that it's better than a series you've barely played? That just makes you look really dumb.

[Great Rumbler]

What's dumb is that from the start you blasted my opinion and then became convinced that I must be basing it on incomplete information. You didn't even attempt to give my opinion the benefit of a doubt!

It's fine for you to say that you like SimCity more than me, and don't get bored eventually doing what seems to me to be similar cities over and over (and never being able to 'win', something that definitely matters to me)...

So...it's your OPINION that Civ is better based on the type of games you like? Well, it's my OPINION that Simcity is better based on the types of games I like. So there.

[OB1]

Only ABF's opinion matters.

[A Black Falcon]

You may well like SimCity over Civilization. I'd actually be interested to hear your opinion on Civilization. I just think that its best to *play* it first. And not for five minuites. That seems a very reasonable thing! Your position is that its fine to say that you like one game over another while not knowing much about it (you say that I 'became convinced' of that, but you sure haven't said anything that makes me think otherwise)... that idea is just absurd.

GR, your reaction to that post of mine really surprised me. You see, it was written under the assumption that you'd played both serieses for a significant amount of time and knew them both well and preferred Civ... something I obviously disagree with and would have liked to hear reasons for... but that wasn't the case, so the post was innacurate. You seemed to think that I knew you hadn't played it much and said that anyway or something, which is just wrong... you really blew this way out of proportion.

Okay... let's go over it again. I say that I like Civ more than Simcity. You say you like Simcity more. This was my first reaction.

At me wondering how much you've played the Civ series, that's where.

Seems like the most sensible thing to say from any measure I can see... you say you prefer one very good game to one other game which has been given even more accolades (and is liked more than the first by hardcore gamers; sorry, but it's true), and I want to know if you've actually played said games... why did this statement set you off? I don't get that at all... you seem to think that it's actually okay to hold an opinion with no hard knowledge of what you speak. That is a very badly flawed idea.

ABF needs to learn that his views aren't always entirely accurate.

No, I need to know what YOUR views are on the game before I make a judgement on you! I tried my best to do that by asking you first off, but you refused for a while... it did not look good, so I had to say more..

Sure, some groups would like Simcity more, namely those that hate games with fighting, or hate strategy games, or hate slow-paced strategy games... but for people who like all those things... I just don't see how anyone could like Civ more... as I said, Civ just has so mure more to the game. Exponentially so from SimCity. It's deeper, more complex, more varied, far more interesting...

But answer my question. Have you played Civ II/Alpha Centauri/Civ III a lot?

Listing the most obvious groups that would prefer SimCity. Given that I would not say that you are in any of them, your choice of SimCity seems surprising to me.

Then you say that you actually HAVEN'T played Civ much, and all is explained...

Oh yeah, and if you play Civ now I bet you'll still say SimCity is better out of spite at least more than anything else. :)

[Great Rumbler]

Fine, I'll humor you. Civilization 3...from all accounts and from the first game [which I put a number of hours into] it looks like the type of game that I would really enjoy. But, right now I absolutely love playing SC4 because it's the kind of game that I really like and I find it hard to believe that Civ3 could be any better [or more fun, which is the most important] than SC4.

[A Black Falcon]

Read my expanded post. :) I added a lot. But this latest post of yours is good.

Oh, and that is a much more reasoned position. Yeah, when you're playing a great game it can sometimes be hard to think of one that could be better... I know when I played Baldur's Gate I couldn't think how an RPG could be better. Of course, then a few years later I got around to playing Planescape Torment...

[Great Rumbler]

How this whole things should have gone:

ABF: I think Civ is better.

GR: I think Simcity is better.

ABF: Oh? Have you played Civ much?

GR: I've played the first one quite a bit, but I haven't played the others.

ABF: Well, you really should play the others, especially Civ3 it's a really good game.

GR: Yeah, I want to play but I haven't got around to it. I'd still probably think Simcity is better, though.

ABF: Well...I guess everyone's entitled to their own opinions, even though I disagree with it.

How things really went:

ABF: Civ is the best.

GR: I think Simcity is better.

ABF: What? Civ has WAY more depth to it than Simcity!

GR: I don't care, I still think Simcity is better.

ABF: Have you even played any of the Civ games?

GR: I've played the first one.

ABF: You're judging the series based on the first game, which is easily the WORST?!

GR: Well you haven't played Simcity 4!

ABF: I don't need to to know that Civilization is a better series...

GR: I still say Simcity is better.

ABF: Only someone who hasn't played Civ very much would say that!

And as per usual, the story ends with the universe exploding.

Universe: *explodes*

[A Black Falcon]

I agree, that's how it should have gone...

But I don't see a huge difference between

At me wondering how much you've played the Civ series, that's where.

and

ABF: Oh? Have you played Civ much?

and I don't see why you do. Sure, what I said isn't quite as nice, but it isn't horrible...

Oh, and as I pointed out the flaw in your arguement is that while Civ 4 clearly has more stuff it's still fundamentally the same game as the two before it. And as I've played both of them a lot I think I'm well qualified to judge the series. You just can't say that about Civ based just on some play of the first game...

And again, I don't dislike Simcity! I remember really liking both of the first two SimCity games. Civ is just the better series...

[Great Rumbler]

Sure, what I said isn't quite as nice, but it isn't horrible...

Not horrible exactly, but it leaves the distinct impression that you believe the only reason I like SC better was because I had played Civ very much. Maybe that wasn't what you were trying to say, but that's the way it came across.

Oh, and as I pointed out the flaw in your arguement is that while Civ 4 clearly has more stuff it's still fundamentally the same game as the two before it.

I think you mean SC4. It's at it's heart the same game, but with the addition of regions it adds a level of city interaction that the other games lack.

Civ is just the better series...*

*Opinion

[A Black Falcon]

Not horrible exactly, but it leaves the distinct impression that you believe the only reason I like SC better was because I had played Civ very much. Maybe that wasn't what you were trying to say, but that's the way it came across.

Well, given that I was correct... but I didn't say that that was the only reason. I said (or meant) that that was the most obvious and understandable one.

I think you mean SC4. It's at it's heart the same game, but with the addition of regions it adds a level of city interaction that the other games lack.

Yes, I mean SC4. And yeah that is probably true, but the core of the series is the same... same in Civ. Each game adds a lot to the previous one, but they are similar in a lot of ways...

*Opinion

Yes, true... but in several ways the more popular one, I think.

[Great Rumbler]

but in several ways the more popular one, I think.

Probably so, but that means nothing to me.

[A Black Falcon]

No, it probably shouldn't...

[Great Rumbler]

Yeah...*cough*

[A Black Falcon]

As in yes, the opinions of others shouldn't guide what you think is good. However, if a game is popular among the group you're in you probably should try it, at least to see if they are right... :)

[Great Rumbler]

I'll just say this one last thing: SC isn't one of my favorite PC series for no reason.

[A Black Falcon]

Yes, because it's a good series.

[alien space marine]

I just bought Starcraft battlechest , But I kind of regret not getting Sim city 4 as it looks like alot of fun and I am into that hole city building thing.


Games I recomend if you love sim city , Is Pharaoh and Ceasar III, Pharaoh is the best you build a ancient egyptian city with all the works and you also have to build temples to the ancient Egyptian gods and appease them otherwise they will send plaques to destroy your city,But if you please the gods they will bless you with bonuses. You build armies to defend your city and defend other egyptian cities. Best of all is building the massive building projects like the great pyramid and ancient temples and burial sites.Yah you get to be pharaoh as well.

[Great Rumbler]

I had Caesar 2 and yeah it was fun game. It combined city building with empire building, and it had realtime battles.

[A Black Falcon]

Yes, if you like SimCity the City Building Series (Caesar, Pharoah, Zeus, etc) is great. Though different -- you have goals, and levels... and the gameplay is different. Especially after Caesar II -- they switched from a 'range from building' system to a 'walkers' system on the roads. Unique.

Oh, after Caesar II the 'overworld map' goes away as do seperate battles. The city screen itsself is the whole game.

Oh, did I mention that the whole series is somewhat insanely hard?

[alien space marine]

Ceasar II was very dificult.

Pharaoh was the most fun.

[Great Rumbler]

Yeah, Caesar 2 was a hard game, it's been a while since I've played it so I don't remember how hard though.

[EdenMaster]

Let's find out once and for all.

[Great Rumbler]

I bet Civ will win.

[A Black Falcon]

No question.

Caesar II... I have that game. Of the City Building Series actually I only have Caesar II and Zeus. Caesar II scared me away... its extreme difficulty was just too much. I'm sure that part of it was that I was younger and not that good at strategy games, but I could handle Warcraft and Civilization... but Caesar II? Not even close. I only ever beat ONE MISSION in that game -- Corsica and Sardinia. Yeah, I never even beat Campania... that Galley Slave "You Lose" video is still burned into my head from seeing it so many times...

Zeus, though, when I finally many years later got myself to buy another game in the series... it isn't Caesar II hard (and would you believe it, but from hardcore series fans I've heard CII be called to easy because Caesar was harder... but I haven't played the first one). It's tough, and I didn't beat the game, but it's not Caesar II hard. Which is good, that was just ridiculous... the games are fun, though. I like having a goal. "Sandbox" games get me bored after a while... I want something to do. The City Building Series (that's the official name) does that. It's very different from Civ, of course... but it does that.

I'd suggest trying the demos of the games, if you weren't on dialup and probably couldn't download them...

[alien space marine]

When I bought Ceasar II I got so angry I had it returned , As it was way to dificult for the average person especially being a young kid at that time.