Dumpster

[A Black Falcon]

Yes it is. If you're saying that the Zelda disc isn't free then you have to say that absolutely nothing is ever free. Not one single thing.

Plenty of things are more free than that... nothing is truly free, but some things are a lot freer than others. The most free are things you don't need to do any special kind of effort to get and cost nothing... this isn't that because it requires buying two specific games!

[A Black Falcon]

Tennis... do you mean the real game or a electronic game? I mean, Pong is a very simplified version of Tennis (or that first game ever of which I forget the name)...

[OB1]

Two out of eight or so games! If that's not free then nothing is.

[OB1]

The real game.

Ooh, or how about video game pinball and real pinball? They play identical to each other (especially if you have a pinball controller), yet one is a video game and the other is not.

[A Black Falcon]

And your point is? Of course pinball and pinball video games are similar but on different mediums... same with tennis and Pong, or CYOA and an adventure game... what is your point, that those things are actually totally different when they have such clear similarities?

[A Black Falcon]

It's less than eight games, for sure. And that is very far from free... if they really wanted to give it out free make it any games! I've bought two games (for Nintendo platforms) since this thing started, I think, but since they weren't THOSE games it doesn't count, and that's stupid.

[OB1]

And you can't get a drink from the water fountain at school without buying clothes first!

[OB1]

That even though two things can seem very similar in some ways, there are specific qualities that seperate them. Text games are not video games because they do not posses all of the qualities that video games require. Same thing goes for real pinball.

[big guy]

what if you got a drink of water from a water fountain at a nudist colony? would that be free? assuming you reached that nudist colony in somone elses car and you didn't give them gas money.

[A Black Falcon]

Well you would be using that gas from that other person's car without paying... :)

[Great Rumbler]

Zelda disc = Free

Everyone who says otherwise = Crack-head monkeys wearing hardhats

[OB1]

*clap clap clap clap*

[Dark Jaguar]

Except I BOUGHT IT WITH MONEY.

[OB1]

And I BOUGHT the CLOTHES that I NEEDED to have in order to use THE WATER FOUNTAIN with MONEY.

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeesh, this isn't hippy stuff like that. This is DIRECT PURCHASE. It's EXACTLY THE SAME as the DVD movie of Shenmue 1 that's in the Shenmue 2 package. I BOUGHT IT DIRECTLY. It's a bit unorthadox, but it's the same thing. I have legal rights to it. If they hadn't given it to me, I'd be perfectly within my rights, legally and morally, to sue them about it because I DO own it due to paying them money. It's not that hard a concept, though I think I'll collapse your trachea anyway so that during your final dying breath, you'll see the absolute truth of it.

[OB1]

I need PANTS to get a drink from the WATER FOUNTAIN. I hope that whole lawsuit thing isn't your only defence.

[Dark Jaguar]

What are you even talking about with this stupid pants thing? My defense is that I PAID for it. I didn't pay an uninvolved 3rd party like Radioshack money to get something from Nintendo. I paid Nintendo money to obtain a product from them. That's called buying.

[OB1]

Yes, and I PAID for my pants in order to get a drink from the water fountain! That's called buying. I could also sue the school for not letting me inside so that I could get a drink from the free fountain because I didn't have any pants on, but that doesn't say much.

[Dark Jaguar]

That's stupid. You're stupid. :D

Yeesh, really. I paid Nintendo to get the game. Your pants analogy completely falls apart the instant one realizes that you aren't paying the school to GET the pants in the first place. You pay a 3rd party. That's where free starts. I'm DIRECTLY PAYING THE COMPANY THAT IS PROVIDING THE ITEM IN ORDER TO GET THE ITEM. No matter what way you look at that, it's called buying, and it's not free because of that.

In a similar vein, let's make your pants analogy fit this situation. If you had to buy the SCHOOL'S pants in order to drink from the fountain, THEN your analogy is the same situation. However, then the water isn't free is it? You had to buy it. Those pants you bought from the school are pretty much a ticket for water.

[Great Rumbler]

Okay, it goes like this: The Zelda disc is FREE because you don't have to pay anything extra. You buy the two games and then you get the disc FREE. You are not required to pay any extra money to recieve the Zelda disc. The cost of the two games that you buy are the same wether you get the Zelda disc or not and the prices of the games have not been inflated in any way because of the Zelda disc. Therefore, the Zelda disc is FREE. Simple.

[OB1]

Originally posted by Dark Jaguar
That's stupid. You're stupid. :D

Yeesh, really. I paid Nintendo to get the game. Your pants analogy completely falls apart the instant one realizes that you aren't paying the school to GET the pants in the first place. You pay a 3rd party. That's where free starts. I'm DIRECTLY PAYING THE COMPANY THAT IS PROVIDING THE ITEM IN ORDER TO GET THE ITEM. No matter what way you look at that, it's called buying, and it's not free because of that.

In a similar vein, let's make your pants analogy fit this situation. If you had to buy the SCHOOL'S pants in order to drink from the fountain, THEN your analogy is the same situation. However, then the water isn't free is it? You had to buy it. Those pants you bought from the school are pretty much a ticket for water.

How do you know that I don't buy my pants from the school? And even if I don't the analogy is still good. If you had to buy two Sega games in order to get the Zelda disc from Nintendo, would you still deny that it's free?

[A Black Falcon]

Look. When you PAY for something it is not FREE. That is a fact. When you PAY to get something it is NOT FREE! How hard is that to understand?

Oh, sure, sure, you would have bought the games anyway... but uh, how is that even remotely relevant to this discussion? I sure can't tell how it is.

OB1 and GR sound like people who actually think that those "buy 2 get 1 free" coupons actually mean that you're getting free food...

[OB1]

Then NOTHING in the world is free.

[Great Rumbler]

OB1 and GR sound like people who actually think that those "buy 2 get 1 free" coupons actually mean that you're getting free food...

It's free because you get it extra and are required to pay nothing extra. You buy the 2 and then you get the one for free. The price is the same. You pay no more than the price of the two, which is the same wether you get the one or not. IT'S THAT FRIGGEN' SIMPLE, PEOPLE!!!

[Dark Jaguar]

GR, the correct way to think of it is the price is split between the two games and the collection. That's the reality. On their end too, though that's irrelevent.

And OB1, no, your analogy does not stand. I shattered it beneath my feet. I don't care if you bought them from the school. My change was if you HAD to buy them from the school. As in, wearing pants is not good enough. You must buy the school's pants. It's like buying one of those all access bracelets to the fair. You had to pay for each and every ride you rode that day. You just have to keep dividing up the price (even down to less than a penny) in your mind to realize it. Not a bit of it was free because you had to show that bracelet you purchased to ride each and every time.

[A Black Falcon]

When you want to get technical, no, nothing is free. But as DJ shows here, you don't need to get anywhere near that extreme to prove that this isn't!

[OB1]

Originally posted by Dark Jaguar
And OB1, no, your analogy does not stand. I shattered it beneath my feet. I don't care if you bought them from the school. My change was if you HAD to buy them from the school. As in, wearing pants is not good enough. You must buy the school's pants. It's like buying one of those all access bracelets to the fair. You had to pay for each and every ride you rode that day. You just have to keep dividing up the price (even down to less than a penny) in your mind to realize it. Not a bit of it was free because you had to show that bracelet you purchased to ride each and every time.

WOW, what ego! And such amazing debating skills! So your definition of shattering somebody's argument is by basically saying "Nope, you're wrong!"? Well then I applaud you, DJ! Here here! *Clap clap clap clap clap clap*



It doesn't matter where the money goes as long as I have to pay for something in order to get something else. I have to BUY PANTS in order to get a drink from a water fountain. I have to BUY one thing in order to get ANOTHER thing.

I have SHATTERED your argument now.

[A Black Falcon]

It doesn't matter where the money goes as long as I have to pay for something in order to get something else. I have to BUY PANTS in order to get a drink from a water fountain. I have to BUY one thing in order to get ANOTHER thing.

I fail to see how this counters DJ's quite logical arguement... lack of choice = lack of freedom, and a lack of freedom means something isn't free. Seems like a good train of logic there to me. And forcing you to buy certain, specific first-party titles is most certainly lack of choice.

What are you going to say next, that schools that require you to wear uniforms don't restrict your freedom either? It's a very logical extension of what you are saying...

[Great Rumbler]

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...Why in the world are we debating something as stupid as whether something is really free or not??!!

[Dark Jaguar]

I see where you're heading with that too. I count the price of something including sales tax because I honestly don't care what goes to the company and what goes to the store. I just care that I pay. Let me use yet ANOTHER thing. PAcman VS, would you call that free? You have to buy one of many little Namco titles to get it. It's the exact same as the collectors disk thing, minus the need to use the US mail system. However, I KNOW you wouldn't call Pacman vs. free and would readily accept that you DIRECTLY PURCHASE it. Same with this collector's disk. You are BUYING it. The price of the game is included in buying the two games or gamecube. You aren't choosing to get your free gift. You are choosing whether or not you bought two games for roughly $100 or 6 games for roughly $100.

[OB1]

Wrong. Pacman Vs. comes with the game, while you don't automatically get Zelda when you buy those games. It's like buying two drinks and then the clerk telling you that you can use the UPC codes on the back of the cans and send them in to the company in order to get a free can of soda.

[Dark Jaguar]

....I almost used the same thing against you... Plus, you can choose not to get pacman vs too, by just buying the standard versions of those games that don't have vs in them. Same diff.

I bet you think gift certificates are good gifts too don't you? Yeah, those have all the lack of thought that cash has, and the "um, you actually have to get your OWN gift" thoughtlessness, plus as a bonus, toss in the a limitation on where it can be used! Yeah, really nice there. Of course, I'm talking as a giver, shopping around for something and stores keep suggesting these stupid certificates. I'll put some cash in a lovely little bag before I do someone the rudeness of the gift certificate.

[OB1]

You have "issues", DJ.

[Dark Jaguar]

What? Almost everyone I know hates gift certificates. They're rude!

[OB1]

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, why give gift certificates? Money is so much better...

And as for Pac-Man Vs... it's included for "free" on the Pac-Man World disc, I believe. Yeah, "free" like that 20% "free" cereal in the box... as in, it isn't free at all, it's just getting more than you usually would. Nothing is free that you pay for, especially directly!

Wrong. Pacman Vs. comes with the game, while you don't automatically get Zelda when you buy those games. It's like buying two drinks and then the clerk telling you that you can use the UPC codes on the back of the cans and send them in to the company in order to get a free can of soda.

"you won a free soda" lids in those contests on soda cans... in a sense the soda is free but you had to buy a soda to get it so really it's just half off. :)

Well, unless you send in a letter for a gamepiece or something, in which case it's the cost of a stamp.

[OB1]

No I'm talking about getting a free drink with two proofs of purchase or something.

[A Black Falcon]

Send in stuff with a $.36 stamp and get a coupon worth $1! That'd be a great deal (and is so different from the situations I've already covered)!

[OB1]

No, I said use the UPC codes at a website and let them send you a free coke.

[A Black Falcon]

Um, a website? No, you definitely didn't mention that detail before... but you can obviously see where I'm going to go with that one (and to head off 'use free pcs at the library or something', you have to get there somehow...)

Sure, sure, I know that saying that nothing is free is annoying, but it's a fact...

[OB1]

It's a stupid thing to say, the kind of thing annoying people like to say.

[A Black Falcon]

I know, but it's true so I can legitimately argue it, annoying or not. :)

[OB1]

You're like one of those dorks that like to point out that the sun is called "sol".


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Haha, I think you or DJ actually said that a few months ago.

[A Black Falcon]

... but it is...

But seriously, I don't think that was me.

[OB1]

Yes I know that it is but you're a dork for saying that (or DJ is, if she's the one who said that)! Tomatos are actually fruit but I don't go around saying that because it's annoying. Nobody cares! It tastes like a vegetable and that's all that matters.

[A Black Falcon]

You care, since you spent so much time defending the idea that that disc's free...

[Great Rumbler]

As my brother, always full of wisdom, said "I would have bought those two games anyway so for me it was free and why should I care what it is to anyone else?"

[OB1]

A wise brother indeed.

[A Black Falcon]

Because your perspective doesn't define what is true? Sorry, had to break it to you...

[OB1]