Even more terrible sales figures for Nintendo

[Dark Jaguar]

What ya mean "you guys"? None of us ever claimed ZOE2 to be cell shaded, save hudson, who so far hasn't recalled his statement.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah! We didn't agree with him... we just didn't say anything. I don't know if anyone here agrees with him... :)

Anyway, I remember several threads here before about SH3... with those screenshots. They never impressed me. Good? Yeah... but special? Not at this point in time.

As for ZOE2, I know nothing about it... it looks like a shooter, I guess.

[OB1]

I meant that as in finally seeing that I'm right. You peeps never speak up. I'm always alone here.

I am really looking forward to ZOE 2 though. The first game, while being seriously flawed, showed potential. And I really hope that SH 3 is as scary as the first game.

[Sacred Jellybean]

Did you find the second as scary as the first?

The 3rd shows potential for great immersion, but I doubt it or any sequel could freak me out as much as the first game. An experience that good can only be experienced once. Playing a new game expecting that would only ruin the element of surprise and disturbance.

This is assuming they take it in the same general direction, which it looks like they are.

[OB1]

I never played the second game, but Weltall and everyone else tell me that it's not as scary as the first.

[Private Hudson]

Originally posted by OB1
Seriously though, what on earth makes you believe that it's cel-shaded?

First link I came across, from TechTV.

The graphics will also go through a major overhaul with cleaner visuals and selective cel-shading, especially with the explosions and character models.

So Cel-Shading has been selectively implemented, with all the effects, and character models. The environments, I would imagine, are not.



Seriously, that doesn't look Cel-Shaded to you? Albiet a different technique of Cel-Shading (the one Celda uses, without the back lines) If you don't see that as CS, then you don't have eyes (yet, you later claimed to have!!). And from every video I've seen, the mechs look just as similar to that. But given the detail, and less colorful design of them, I can see how you would think they are polygonal.

doesn't look convinving from a polygonal standpoint? WTF? Is that supposed to make any sense?

I meant it could fool you into being polygonal.

Show me one single screen shot of a big, complex environment in SH 3 and I'll shut up.

The PS2 is the most difficult of the three systems to develop for. Just about every major developer has already states that developing for the PS2 is a humongous pain in the ass. Finding a way to make games look anti-aliased was in itself a huge task for many developers. Making textures look passable is also a big problem. There is nothing good about the PS2 hardware compared to the GC and X-Box hardware, and there are no PS2 games that look as good as the best GC and X-Box games.

They were, yes. They were struggling with the freedom they were given. They were struggling with the potential of the system. Sony released NO LIBRARIES with the console (assuming the developers didn't want any, long story). Now that the developers have come up with their own libraries, nobody is complaining anymore, are they? Yet they still keep finding ways to tap more and more out of the machine.

And I've already shown that there are, and will continue to be.

The cel-shading in WW in currently the best in any game. Nintendo managed to create a true saturday-morning cartoon look for Zelda, and I have yet to see anything else that even comes close.

It does look amazing. That boss battle still makes my jaw drop. But given that both ZOE2 (tentative), and JSRF both run at 60fps, I find them to be much more impressive. It's much easier to make a game prettier, if you sacrifice your framerate.

Did you find the second as scary as the first?

It's not in the same league as the first. In fact, it's not even scary. Although, I haven't played the extras that come with the Greatest Hits version of the game.

And Konami promised us that SH3 will be the fereakiest and scariest in the series, by far. :) Something to look forward to. :)

Big Guy, download the SH3 movies. The environments, the lighting, the character models. It's an awesome display. That old man is the closest I have ever seen to photorealistic. My jaw hit the flaw when I saw him. And, IMO, ZOE2 is much more impressive than SH3. :)

Oh, and some food for thought.

Zone of the Enders: The Second Runner, or Anubis: Zone of the Enders as it's called here in Japan, is perhaps the most amazingly beautiful game at this fall's Tokyo Game show, up there with games like Panzer Dragoon Orta, and a strong contender for most impressive demo on display.

[Weltall]

Originally posted by OB1
Show me one single screen shot of a big, complex environment in SH 3 and I'll shut up.

Okay, you can shut up now.

[Weltall]

Originally posted by Sacred Jellybean
Did you find the second as scary as the first?

The 3rd shows potential for great immersion, but I doubt it or any sequel could freak me out as much as the first game. An experience that good can only be experienced once. Playing a new game expecting that would only ruin the element of surprise and disturbance.

This is assuming they take it in the same general direction, which it looks like they are.

I actually think Silent Hill 2 is superior to Silent Hill 1. Not because it's scarier (it's not, really), but the storyline is FAR superior (it freaks you out in completely different ways than the first, and what happens in room 312 of the Lakeview hotel is probably one of the most powerful and unexpected things I've ever seen in a videogame ever!), and the endings are factored on more than just two events. Practically everything you do factors into what ending you'll get. The only problem is that the fear level is lowered because the monsters really don't go out of their way to kill you... unless you play Hard Mode. You WILL fear everything in Hard Mode (I suggest doing Hard Mode on your first try, the experience is definitely better).

[Nintendarse]

If I say, "big environment" and the best thing you can come up with is your local video store, I suggest that you need to get out a bit more. That picture fits the "complex" aspect, but is it "big?" The room also has a very "cardboard" look to it. I mean, to me, it's quite obvious that the stacks of magazines are simply rectangular prisms with muddy textures on them. It's not as convincing as Resident Evil 4. But maybe it's just me.

[Private Hudson]

Just to add to that, Wetwall.













Note: I didn't really post these pics for any real reason, I just think they are funky.

Also note: SH3 has a lot of environments where the same texture is not used twiced. Although, this is most likely due to layering (having one texture layer for tiles, another for rust/blood/grime etc)

Originally posted by Nintendarse
If I say, "big environment" and the best thing you can come up with is your local video store, I suggest that you need to get out a bit more. That picture fits the "complex" aspect, but is it "big?" The room also has a very "cardboard" look to it. I mean, to me, it's quite obvious that the stacks of magazines are simply rectangular prisms with muddy textures on them. It's not as convincing as Resident Evil 4. But maybe it's just me.

Also note the outdoors screenshot that I posted for "big". I believe Weltall was adressing the "complex" issue. And they are as detailed, and as large as any of the environments shown in RE4 thus far.

But everyone knows what the environments will be like in SH3. Most of the outdoors and large environments will be shrowded in fog (this time, it will most likely be shadow, as far as I can tell).

Will the (visable) environments end up being as large as those in RE4? Probably not, I'm not that naive. But what will be going on inside those environments, we won't know for sure until both games are released. At least, RE4 is uncertain.

It's also very stupid to be judging either of the game from pics. We all know that Resident Evil 4 is an equisit piece of beuty to look at in motion, those pics, however, aren't anything special. The same applies to SH3.

In the end, the games are very comparable. And both are arguably two of the best looking games made thus far on a home videogame console, that's all my point ever was. You can keep trying to find fault in SH3's graphics all you want, but they are impeccable and comparable to both RE4 and Splinter Cell (can't use SC!) in everyway.

[Private Hudson]

(it freaks you out in completely different ways than the first, and what happens in room 312 of the Lakeview hotel is probably one of the most powerful and unexpected things I've ever seen in a videogame ever!),

Despite my distain towards the game, I must admit that that was one of the most fantastic parts of any videogame, ever.

It's a pity that I already had it spoiled for me :(

[OB1]

Uh guys, those screen shots don't even work. The only one that does is the first one that Hudson posted, and that environment is tiny.

Seriously, that doesn't look Cel-Shaded to you? Albiet a different technique of Cel-Shading (the one Celda uses, without the back lines) If you don't see that as CS, then you don't have eyes (yet, you later claimed to have!!). And from every video I've seen, the mechs look just as similar to that. But given the detail, and less colorful design of them, I can see how you would think they are polygonal.

That's not real cel-shading, Hudson. They are using flat, solid colors in order to give it a sort of anime look, but it is most definitely not cel-shaded.

They were, yes. They were struggling with the freedom they were given. They were struggling with the potential of the system. Sony released NO LIBRARIES with the console (assuming the developers didn't want any, long story). Now that the developers have come up with their own libraries, nobody is complaining anymore, are they? Yet they still keep finding ways to tap more and more out of the machine.

And I've already shown that there are, and will continue to be.

"They were struggling with the freedom they were given"?? Oh puhleez! The system is a bitch to develop for. Show me one single quote from any major PS2 developer that states otherwise and I'll give you a dozen more in return.

It does look amazing. That boss battle still makes my jaw drop. But given that both ZOE2 (tentative), and JSRF both run at 60fps, I find them to be much more impressive. It's much easier to make a game prettier, if you sacrifice your framerate.

Dude, ZOE 2 isn't cel-shaded. And if it were, that's some pretty lame cel-shading. The cel-shading coupled with the animation in WW make it the current king of cel-shading. Nothing comes close.

[OB1]

Gamespot is messed up right now, so you better get images from ign or somwhere else.

[OB1]

Ok I went to gamespot and read their preview of ZOE 2, and they say that it's cel-shaded.

That's pretty sad. I'm sorry, but that cel-shading sucks ass. The game looks great, but that's some pretty half-assed cel-shading. All they've done is give the models solid, flat textures. It's not called cel-texturing, it's called cel-shading. The models have to look like flat 2-D objects at every angle, and ZOE2 failes to do that. It looks great as it is, but don't call that great cel-shading.

[A Black Falcon]

Um, OB1, Gamespot isn't messed up, and I can see all of those screenshots just fine... that mech does look cel shaded in closeup.

[big guy]

the ZOE2 graphics recall to me, memories of that Neon Genesis game for N64. they used flat, solid colors in that game to give it an anime look and that's how this Zone of enders game looks.

also, the screenshots of SH3 to me, seem very small...and far from complex, given the size of the environment. metroid prime shows off comparable complexity but in enivronments much much larger. the main plaza of the chozo ruins comes to mind. then again, metroid prime was running very basic lighting...and SH3 seems to have very dynamic lighting, but still, the MP environments are huge.

also, and this is sort of nit picky, the dog on the table in the one SH3 shot looks absolutely terrible. the texture is muddy and the model extremely blocky, mostly at the feet. it just fits very poorly with the rest of the picture.

i won't deny that the game has a great atmosphere and an impressive style, it has both, but technically it just doesn't impress me much, when compared to GC and XBox games. by Ps2 standards though, they're both lovely. but that's Ps2 standards.

i won't talk about RE4 because i haven't seen enough of it to know exactly how great it looks.

[Dark Jaguar]

What do you mean finally see that you are right about this? I didn't disagree with you on this point to start with silly.

[Nintendarse]

The closeup of the mech does make it look cel-shaded, but at any type of realistic distance, the models just look like they have very basic textures.

And I stand by what I said before. None of those areas are simultaneously big and complex, at least nowhere near the level of the RE4 staircase. The style is awesome, the lighting is awesome, the character model is awesome (except the closeups of the hair...bleh), but it's simply not on the same level in terms of smoothness and technology. By smoothness, I mean that everything looks like it's made of cardboard.

[Weltall]

Originally posted by Nintendarse
If I say, "big environment" and the best thing you can come up with is your local video store, I suggest that you need to get out a bit more. That picture fits the "complex" aspect, but is it "big?" The room also has a very "cardboard" look to it. I mean, to me, it's quite obvious that the stacks of magazines are simply rectangular prisms with muddy textures on them. It's not as convincing as Resident Evil 4. But maybe it's just me.

Come on man, it's a survival horror game. They're not usually filled with stadium-sized areas. And even the large areas are usually shrouded in darkness, as that's the nature of the game. SH3 will almost definitely have some huge areas (if you end up running through the streets of Silent Hill as you did often in the first two games.)

Are there any RE4 pics that rival these in complexity and detail? I haven't seen them yet.

Then again, my bias toward Silent Hill isn't because of the graphics :D

[Private Hudson]

Originally posted by OB1
Uh guys, those screen shots don't even work. The only one that does is the first one that Hudson posted, and that environment is tiny. [/b]

The entrance to an amusement park is tiny?

Either way, I already stated that we all know what SH3's environments will be like. Will they be huge? No, but I'm willing to guess that RE4's won't be much bigger.

[quote]"They were struggling with the freedom they were given"?? Oh puhleez! The system is a bitch to develop for. Show me one single quote from any major PS2 developer that states otherwise and I'll give you a dozen more in return.

Like I said, they're not complaining anymore. They didn't know how to develope all the techniques in software, they didn't know how to utilise the VRAM effectively, they didn't know how to etc. etc. etc. Sony intentionally did not release any libraries for the system, so as to give the developers more freedom, and it backfired (at least initially). It was a bitch to develope for, mainly because they were given so much freedom/was different.

That's pretty sad. I'm sorry, but that cel-shading sucks ass. The game looks great, but that's some pretty half-assed cel-shading. All they've done is give the models solid, flat textures. It's not called cel-texturing, it's called cel-shading. The models have to look like flat 2-D objects at every angle, and ZOE2 failes to do that. It looks great as it is, but don't call that great cel-shading.

Well, I'm guess that it's the developers intention to do it that way. Whether it's comparable to most cel-shaded games is really quite irrelevant, in the end.

. the texture is muddy

It's covered in blood

and the model extremely blocky, mostly at the feet

I always thought they were hooves

By smoothness, I mean that everything looks like it's made of cardboard

I don't get that impression

[Nintendarse]

Weltall, if you're trying to catch me in a graphics-whore mode, it won't work. Check back to page two. It was OB1 that made the claim that PS2 can't keep up with Gamecube and Xbox. However, because I felt that I might add my opinion in a graphics-comparison, I stated that my eyes tell me that the RE4 shots on page 2 look better than the SH3 shots in the rest of the thread in terms of graphics. SH3 probably has better atmosphere, better story, and better gameplay, but on a purely graphical judgement, RE4 takes the cake.

[Weltall]

No, I wasn't trying to make you out to be a graphics-whore, I just added that last line for effect, as it's one of my favorite games of all time :)

Though honestly, I don't think the RE4 shots look that great, and they seem even more washed out.

I can't wait till they put out some more detailed shots of Silent Hill 3's Hell dimension

[big guy]

is RE4 completely real time? or are they using pre-rendered backgrounds again?

[EdenMaster]

Originally posted by Private Hudson
Despite my distain towards the game, I must admit that that was one of the most fantastic parts of any videogame, ever.

It's a pity that I already had it spoiled for me :(

For someone whos never played the game (meaning me and only me), what exactly happens?

[Sacred Jellybean]

If you tell, put it in a spoiler tag, dammit. I haven't played it yet.

[Weltall]

Originally posted by EdenMaster
For someone whos never played the game (meaning me and only me), what exactly happens?

I'll PM it to you. Even though a spoiler tag will stop him from seeing right away, I don't want him to succumb to temptation and ruin it for himself anyway ;)

[OB1]

Originally posted by big guy
is RE4 completely real time? or are they using pre-rendered backgrounds again?

It's 100 % real-time.

I still can't see those screenshots, or any other screens at gamespot.

Those RE4 picks do look a bit washed out, but that's not the game's fault. Blame it bad screen grabs. Go watch the videos for a better impression.

Like I said, they're not complaining anymore. They didn't know how to develope all the techniques in software, they didn't know how to utilise the VRAM effectively, they didn't know how to etc. etc. etc. Sony intentionally did not release any libraries for the system, so as to give the developers more freedom, and it backfired (at least initially). It was a bitch to develope for, mainly because they were given so much freedom/was different.

Uh-huh. Show me some proof to back up your claims.

Well, I'm guess that it's the developers intention to do it that way. Whether it's comparable to most cel-shaded games is really quite irrelevant, in the end.

It is when you foolishly call ZOE 2's cel-shading better than WW's.

[A Black Falcon]

You can't see Gamespot screenshots? Do you have the problem I had a while ago -- the HOSTS file in c:\windows ? Its a file with a list of ad-sites which are blocked... KaZaA/Kazaalite installs it, but there might be other ways it gets there.

If that's it you'd need to delete the lines in it referring to 'image.com.com'. Or the whole file, if you don't mind more banner ads and probably popups.

[Private Hudson]

Originally posted by OB1
[B]
[quote]Uh-huh. Show me some proof to back up your claims.

I don't need to go wading through endless links to tell you the reason the PS2 was difficult to develope for was because it was DIFFERENT. It offers unlimted freedom in how you wish to code the game (hence why the EE was made to be so powerful).

The reason, however, that the textures were extremely poor (at least early on) was because of the radical use of the VRAM/Texture Cache. Which is used soley to store the framebuffers (and stream the textures at high speed).

They go hand in hand, but the reason you'll see more and more effects implemented by the PS2 as time goes on is because of this freedom. Remember when PS2 has no anti-aliasing? Now there are half a dozen AA techniques that can be used very effectively. Remember when Self-Shadowing was thought to be impossible? What about bump-mapping? In the future, it's possible that you will be seeing effects on the PS2 that the GCN and XBox simply cannot do. Although I really don't know how likely that is.

Every developer at launch complained about not having libraries to develope with. Complained about being thrown straight into the "metal" of the machine, not knowing where to start. I'm not claiming that the PS2 wasn't hard to develope for, as it generally takes a lot more effort to do some simple effects that are handled through hardware on say, the XBox. I'm just explaining WHY it's hard to develope for.

It is when you foolishly call ZOE 2's cel-shading better than WW's.

I merely meant that I found ZOE2 to be arguably more impressive graphically, seeing as they are both Cel-Shaded, I thought the comparison was valid. I never intended to claim ZOE2 used a more advanced form of Cel-Shading (or what have you), if that's what you think.

[OB1]

OK I can see them now. Very pretty, but the environments are still tiny. And that video store? It doesn't take a whole lot of polygons to make a regular room and a bunch of books. Look at Morrowind for example. But it does look good. Not RE 4 good, though.

I don't need to go wading through endless links to tell you the reason the PS2 was difficult to develope for was because it was DIFFERENT. It offers unlimted freedom in how you wish to code the game (hence why the EE was made to be so powerful).

So basically you're just making up most of this stuff. I'm sorry, but there still aren't any PS2 games that look as good as Fable, KOTOR, Rogue Leader, Wind Waker, or the X-Box DOA games just to name a handful.

I merely meant that I found ZOE2 to be arguably more impressive graphically, seeing as they are both Cel-Shaded, I thought the comparison was valid. I never intended to claim ZOE2 used a more advanced form of Cel-Shading (or what have you), if that's what you think.

ZOE 2 is going to be a great game. Bur graphically-speaking? It'll look good for the PS2 game. But it can't even begin to touch the graphical splendour of Wind Waker. Have you even seen WW in motion yet? The graphics and animation come together to make one of the most visually unique and stunning games ever made.

[Private Hudson]

Originally posted by OB1
So basically you're just making up most of this stuff.

If that's what you wish to think.

I'm sorry, but there still aren't any PS2 games that look as good as Fable, KOTOR, Rogue Leader, Wind Waker, or the X-Box DOA games just to name a handful.

Rogue Leader and DOA are certainly above the rest, along with Starfox Adventures. The latest screens of Fable really don't seem all that great, but I'll reserve judgment for the videos. Same goes for KOTOR, the latest screens aren't particularly impressive. And I think ZOE looks better than Wind Waker.

:)

ZOE 2 is going to be a great game. Bur graphically-speaking? It'll look good for the PS2 game. But it can't even begin to touch the graphical splendour of Wind Waker. Have you even seen WW in motion yet? The graphics and animation come together to make one of the most visually unique and stunning games ever made.

Surely I have, and surely it does. Amazing looking game.

[OB1]

*sigh*

I'll allow you your delusions.

[Private Hudson]

That's all I ever wanted.

:p

[Great Rumbler]

This arguement has been been brought to you by meat by-products. Meat by-products: real meat only wished it tasted this good.

:)

[OB1]

I'd like to show Hudson some screens from an awesome-looking X-Box game. No Ps2 game could ever come close to looking this good:











100% real-time. I think. The gameplay movies at ign look as good and everyone says they're real-time, so...

[A Black Falcon]

What game is that?

[OB1]

Sudeki. It's an RPG, and I'm really looking forward to it.

[Great Rumbler]

The best looking Xbox [and to a certain extent, GC games] games will always look better than the best looking PS2 games for two reasons: Xbox [and GC to an extent] can do bump-mapping and PS2 can't [at least not to my knowledge] and the Xbox [and GC to an extent] can do much better lighting effects than the PS2.

[OB1]

I think the PS2 can do bump-mapping. But the hardware just isn't capable of creating something even half as pretty as Sudeki.

[Private Hudson]

The PS2 can do bump-mapping, but it's not up to the same quality of what XB and GCN is capable of, as it can only be done through software, and takes a tremendous hit on the hardware. Although it is being implemented in some games.

But I think bump-mapping is overrated. They really need to find a way to improve it, because it doesn't look very convincing at all angles, and under all lighting.

Anyways, those shots are gorgeous. The movie isn't working for me though (:(), any in-game footage? What's the perspective?

The PS2 would never be able to match those textures, in-game. I love the leaves on the trees in particular.

[Private Hudson]

Alright.

I just downloaded Trailer #3 (December 12).

And I take it that the latest trailer looks better, because it really doesn't look impressive at all.

More like beefed up Kingdom Hearts... excellent character models, but certainly not up with the best (Halo 2, RE4, SH3). Special effects are neato, but again, not above the best (PDO, FFX, KH)

I guess the closest comparisons would be Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance and Final Fantasy X. I take it that Sudeki has bigger environments than those 2, though. But from the footage I saw, the environments weren't nearly as detailed as those you posted.

[OB1]

*sings*

And your true (fanboy) colors shine through...

*stops singing*

Those are in-game screens. Don't even deny the fact that it looks three times as good as the best-looking PS2 titles. Come on boy, you're really losing ground here.

And bump-mapping is overrated? That's like me saying eight years ago that textures are overrated. Doom 3 wouldn't look one tenth as good as it does now if it weren't for clever bump-mapping and lighting placement.

[Private Hudson]

What true fanboy colors? "Durr durr, I own all 3 consoles I don't need to be a fanboy, durr durr". :p Doofus.

I'm just saying by the video I saw really wasn't as impressive as those pics. I'm assuming the latest trailer looks better, though. Yes?

It's certainly not the best looking upcoming XBox game.

Now, if you had have posted Halo 2, then I'd certainly admit it looks far better than any PS2 games. Although, thus far, it's really only the character model that looks great. But imagine that much detail while being surrounded bby about 60 covenant in a huge field PS2 certainly couldn't handle the poly-mapping in that game.

[OB1]

No Halo 2 shots currently available look anywhere near as good as Sudeki.

[Private Hudson]

*shrugs*

Well, Halo 2, with the assumption that there will be vast battles taking place in open battle fields. I wouldn't imagine they'd go to the trouble of giving their character so much detail, then stifle the core gameplay.

Other than that, that Sudeki trailer really didn't impress me.

XBox game or not. :)

[OB1]

The trailers are crummy. Take a look at those screens (yes they're in-game) and just try to tell me that you're unimpressed.

[Great Rumbler]

Sudeki looks amazing! Why haven't I heard of this game before?!

[OB1]

Because it's not as hyped-up as some other X-Box titles. Here are some more pretty screens to feast your eyes on:

[Nintendarse]

Wow. Those Sudeki pics are amazing. I'd even go as far as saying that they one-up RE4 in the graphic department. It's certainly hard to compare because the two games are going for very differerent graphical styles, but the whole fantastical world comes to life so vividly that I can't help but be wowed. It's insane how many bump-maps they're using in one environment. With the exception of a bad texture in the dark cathedral picture, all of the textures are used beautifully. Of course, I'd have to see how it looks in motion, but those are great still-frames regardless.

[A Black Falcon]

Those graphics are really good... I don't know if they are better than Halo 2, but they are really good. And most of them have very good texturing, too... some parts look not as good (like the grass in that last one) but most look great... I don't know if its as good looking as RE4 (probably not from that, but part of it is probably the look they are going for... like how the characters don't look as realistic as some games, but look good so I think they must be aiming for that look... which is definitely good. I'm not sure if I'd go as far as some of you are, though.

Even so they do look good. I wonder how well the GC could do that game...