Etrian Odyssey is really hard

[A Black Falcon]

Fun, but really hard. I got to floor 2 (late last week after getting it) then went and played Children of Mana for three hours, because I wanted to play something where I'd actually make progress... sure, Children of Mana is a far worse game and gets boring quickly, but 'easy' is fun sometimes. :D

... erm, right, Etrian Odyssey is cool... the mapping thing is the best feature of course. It's like Wizardry 6 without the graph paper... :)

(http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132692 has a lot of stuff)

[Dark Jaguar]

I've never even heard of this game. Details?

[A Black Falcon]

Oldschool-style first-person dungeon crawling RPG from Atlus. You have to make the map on the lower screen as you go, while you play on the upper one. It feels very much like an '80s PC-style RPG, with console stylings like limited saving and anime-style artwork (and, as with most console RPGs, a less complex game system than most PC RPGs have)... quite good game. As I said though, it's also very difficult...

http://www.atlus.com/etrian/ (it's a pretty good official site... look at all the stuff! It's worth it. The comics section is particularly great... )

... and the NeoGAF thread above.

[Dark Jaguar]

Eh, Penny Arcade's funnier, but I can't really expect much from "promotional comedy". ...Did they actually use the word "sheeple"?

As I've said I disagree with the "less complex" thing but let's not go there. This one maybe though.

I have to say, I've played "Eye of the Beholder" before and if this is anything like that, I'm not sure I want a part in it. That was a rather dull game... Surprisingly short too, which I guess if a game's going to be boring it might as well not overstay it's welcome.

[A Black Falcon]

Boring? No, not really. Nice graphics, great music, great artwork, lots to do, mapping, items and stuff... it is oldschool, so there is a lot of backtracking and the bosses are VERY hard, but you can often avoid them and fight them later on, and can see them on the map, etc.

There are seven classes initially, with four character portraits (two male, two female) available for each class. You create characters by giving them a class, a picture, and a name. As they say on that site (and in that comic), this one's a traditional RPG... the characters don't talk or have any personality outside of their name and portrait. There's a nice entry on the site about that...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.p...92&page=25

How to use your imagination
When your party stays at the Inn overnight, what do they eat?

If you ever catch yourself wondering that, then you know you've formed an attachment to your characters.

With Etrian Odyssey's characters, you only give them a name and a portrait, so no matter how you think of the character, it's technically just your imagination. But even in that case, without your imagination, the character is nothing.

For example, a landsknecht who uses an axe might eat his meat with his bare hands and no utensils, but one who wields a sword might prefer a knife and fork at dinner. You might think differently, but... If you can imagine small details like that, you might find that you enjoy this kind of RPG even more.

The essence of an RPG is using numbers to make calculated decisions, but if you invest those "numbers" with your own feelings, you can spice up the game a little. Think about this:

In your party of five, three characters are dead. Two of them are alive, but they only have a couple of HP left, and no TP. They're certain to die in their next turn, giving you a game over. Number-wise, those characters are useless, but how do you imagine they feel about that? What kind of people are those 2 characters who are about to die? Try to imagine things like that in the brief time before your game ends.

Are they a landsknecht and a ronin, who'll die facing the enemy and laughing?
Is it a protector, ordering the weak medic to run with his last breath?

The game over screen looks the same every time, but in your imagination, it could play out very differently.

The game itself isn't that big of a thing; what you imagine for yourself is much more fun. We hope that the player uses this game as a tool, to create dramatic and fun situations in your own minds.

Now I didn't play those '80s RPGs when I was younger, but I did play stuff like Quest for Glory where a lot of your character's character is in your head and not on the screen, so a lot of that made sense to me... I definitely create internal concepts of what my characters are when I make characters in an RPG. Games don't do stuff like this anymore very often... as the comic says, it's a throwback, but not in a bad way. :)

Oh, and yes, they did use the word "sheeple", and it works perfectly in that context. :)

GR has the game and has gotten farther than I have, for sure, but I definitely think that it's a pretty long game... and then you can retire old characters and create new ones, so it doesn't even end just when you get characters to max level (70?)...

As I've said I disagree with the "less complex" thing but let's not go there. This one maybe though.

How could you? It's a simple fact.

[Dark Jaguar]

Prove it. :D

Anyway, maybe I'll look into it.

[Great Rumbler]

You're such a wuss, Brian.

I'm down to B7F, by the way, running a PPLMA at level 22.

[Dark Jaguar]

That's not actually english at all.

[Great Rumbler]

It's code. And only those cool enough to have Etrian Odyssey will be able to decipher it.

[Dark Jaguar]

I haven't seen this game in any of the stores I've been to when I decide to browse their gaming section. I also haven't found Odin Sphere.

[Great Rumbler]

I got my copy a Gamestop.

[Dark Jaguar]

Ever since I found out they sell opened games as "new", I stopped shopping there.

[A Black Falcon]

I got it at my local gaming store, but I also saw a copy at another local gaming store (local music store chain that sells some games) and both GameStops in the mall (yes, they finally rebranded the EB as Gamestop, even though there's another one (the one that used to be Software ETC years back) almost within sight of it...).

Really, I don't quite get that "Atlus games are hard to find" thing. Summon Night 1 for GBA? Saw that at the local music chain (where I got it). Summon Night 2? All four of those stores that had Etrian Odyssey had that one. Yggdra Union? They had a copy of that for sale at one of the Gamestops, and I got it last fall at one of the local places... the other one got a copy later on. Riviera? None around now, but up until a few months back I saw multiple copies around... Mazes of Fate (for GBA) from O3, an even harder to find game? Saw that at one of the local stores. It's still available at one of them, actually. Etc.

I haven't looked for Odin Sphere, obviously. I don't know if either Gamestop had it... I was there yesterday, but didn't look at PS2 games. I'll check the local places out of interest the next time I'm there, but I imagine that at least one of them will have it... the local gaming store has a lot of Atlus stuff (at high prices of course) -- Growlancer Generations for PS2, Lunar 2 PSX, Arc the Lad Collection, the PSX Ogre Battle games, etc, and the local music store chain always seems to get in a copy or two or Atlus's new releases.

Ever since I found out they sell opened games as "new", I stopped shopping there.

Does it matter really? I buy lots of used games... I don't mind if it's used. Okay, it's kind of deceptive, and obviously false if your "new" game doesn't include the case and manual or something, but still, that's not bad enough to get me to stop going there or something.

[Dark Jaguar]

You're just lucky I guess. Maybe you live in a small town? Around here any popular game with a small initial printing gets sold out in like a day and you never find it again, like Phoenix Wright.

[A Black Falcon]

Both Gamestops in the mall had four or five copies of Phoenix Wright 1 in the bargain bin when I was there yesterday, 50% off (so they were $15). Phoenix Wright 2 is also easy to find; they both had copies, and the local stores each have a copy too... full price everywhere though of course. :)

I didn't buy either. I'm almost broke, so instead I got Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends for PC ($5! For a major PC game released last year! Wow...) and Summon Night Swordcraft Story 2 for GBA ($20, which is $8-$10 less than the copies available at the local places...). There are always so many games I see there that I want, but you can't get everything...

[Great Rumbler]

I like how this thread went from "X game is really awesome" to "I wish I could find game X" to "I hate gaming store Y" to "Gaming store Y is okay, now listen to my tales of purchasing games A, B, and C".

[A Black Falcon]

My point was that I've always found that these games aren't very hard to find.

Anyway, if you want the thread to change, say something about the game... :)

[Dark Jaguar]

Oh so you can change the subject of my threads but I can't change the subject of yours? That's not cool man!

[A Black Falcon]

Well, it IS a good game, but yeah, there's nothing wrong with changing topics. It's not like it can't change back later.

[Great Rumbler]

Let's talk about the game now.

If you'd made it to B3F, you should just avoid the Stalkers on that level. There's pretty much no way you can beat them at the level you're at. Just bypass them and continue on. That was what got me stuck the most early on, I didn't realize that you could get around them. It's been pretty much smooth sailing since then, just make sure you save early and often.

Also, don't be afraid to run away from battles and to use your Warp Pipes.

[Dark Jaguar]

...Warp Pipes? What is this, Paper Mario?

[A Black Falcon]

Also, don't be afraid to run away from battles and to use your Warp Pipes.

Running away is pretty effective, but warp pipes... unless I go the "make a whole party of survivalists with all their points in Chop to take advantage of the resource point near the enterance of the first floor" method, which seems to me would be kind of cheating (RPGs are about making one party, not several...), there's no way I'd come up with the money to afford a 100 gold (or whatever the money is called) item for every time I go in... and then you still need to fight your way back DOWN, because the continue points are very few and far between (what is it, every five floors in a 30 floor dungeon?), and the random monsters are not exactly easy to say the least... just surviving the normal baddies is tough enough, forgetting the FOEs (Ragelopes = HARD!; random monster versions of that enemy (forget their name) = "can almost kill you in one hit".). And this is just on floor 2.

Oh yes, my party is DL MAB (I want a Hexer, but that's not happening anytime soon to say the least...). Why a bard... uh, I don't know... it seems alright. Four of the names are from my Guild Wars or Icewind Dale II characters... only one of those five actually is new. :) I made a few other characters too, to have one from each class, but I haven't used the others yet.

...Warp Pipes? What is this, Paper Mario?

An item which transports you back to town. It's not like a Diablo town portal scroll, though; it brings you to town, but not back to where you came from after you're done...

[Great Rumbler]

Running away is pretty effective, but warp pipes... unless I go the "make a whole party of survivalists with all their points in Chop to take advantage of the resource point near the enterance of the first floor" method, which seems to me would be kind of cheating (RPGs are about making one party, not several...), there's no way I'd come up with the money to afford a 100 gold (or whatever the money is called) item for every time I go in...

Man, what is it with you and not being able to get money in videogames? I haven't really had many money problems, a bit early on, but I fixed that by just fighting a lot and taking advantage of the item points from time to time. Make sure to fight a lot of enemies at a fairly low level, that should give you more than enough items to build up some cash reserves.

(Ragelopes = HARD!; random monster versions of that enemy (forget their name) = "can almost kill you in one hit".). And this is just on floor 2.

You sir need to do some level griding.

Don't worry too much about Warp Pipes on the first few levels, but by the time you get down to B4F and B5F, you really need to keep at least two with at all times.

[A Black Falcon]

The Alchemist is level 8, the other four level 7. I'm partway through floor 2 - I have a bunch explored, but I think some of that is from deaths... I have defeated two ropealopes though, I think. Is that too low for where I am or for the Ragelopes or something? Aren't they supposed to be hard?

As for money, there's enough to buy a couple of items, but not much... all you get is the stuff from drops, but if you need warp wires and healing items and stuff, that adds up fast... money isn't a huge problem, but getting a warp wire every time... that'd make buying other stuff harder anyway, for sure. And you can only do the woodcutting thing once a day. A party of five survivalists with Chop looks more attractive all the time..

I haven't played the game in a couple of days... too busy, then I played CoM and some Advance Wars (both DS and 2... I FINALLY finished the final mission of Advance Wars 2! :)) then yesterday I got some new games... I will though.

[Great Rumbler]

As for money, there's enough to buy a couple of items, but not much... all you get is the stuff from drops, but if you need warp wires and healing items and stuff, that adds up fast... money isn't a huge problem, but getting a warp wire every time... that'd make buying other stuff harder anyway, for sure. And you can only do the woodcutting thing once a day. A party of five survivalists with Chop looks more attractive all the time..

You can do chop twice at level 1, actually.

The Alchemist is level 8, the other four level 7. I'm partway through floor 2 - I have a bunch explored, but I think some of that is from deaths... I have defeated two ropealopes though, I think. Is that too low for where I am or for the Ragelopes or something? Aren't they supposed to be hard?

You probably need to be at least level 10 when you go to B3F, anything lower than that and you're going to have a tough time. For the moment, concentrate on taking out the FOEs one at a time, that should give you enough experience points to get where you need to be.

[A Black Falcon]

You can do chop twice at level 1, actually.

Per point, yes, but you only get one point to distribute per level, and only have five characters... I've got 8 chops per day now.

[Great Rumbler]

That should be enough to get you some items to sell, along with what you get from fighting enemies.

[Dark Jaguar]

A lumber jack is someone who jacks up lumber! One day, we shall win the war against nature!

[A Black Falcon]

There are so many items that keep getting added to the shop though, and I can't afford most of them...

[Great Rumbler]

Don't worry too much about getting new equipment as long as you're just level grinding, leave those till you're ready to head for the deeper levels.

Also, do lots of quests.

[A Black Falcon]

There aren't that many quests... I've done three and have two more, but that's all I've seen so far...

I'm not trying to level grind, just completely explore the floor. Without dying in the process. Once I manage that, I'll try the next floor... :)

[Great Rumbler]

I'm not trying to level grind, just completely explore the floor. Without dying in the process. Once I manage that, I'll try the next floor...

I think that's the reason why you find the game incredibly hard. You NEED to level grind. Just exploring the level thoroughly is not going to give you enough battles to make it through the next level.

For example: I'm sitting comfortably at B6F, but anytime I venture down into B7F, I get my carcass handed to be by the FOEs there. One, a very large bird that hits all of your characters for about 50-60 points each [my characters have about 120-170 hit points], and the other a very large scorpion that hits one of your characters with poison on a regular basis which does about 60 on the initial hit and then about 120 at the end of that same turn. In other words, bad stuff all around. So, I'm level griding.

[Dark Jaguar]

Ugh, level grinding...

[A Black Falcon]

Avoiding the FOEs for a long time until you get higher level is the other strategy, but that's less satisfying than facing them (if you can)... but just pure level grinding, "go there and fight stuff purely for XP and then come back", is awful and something that gets me to quit playing games. As long as there's something to do it's okay -- defeat the FOEs, explore the whole stage, find the hidden areas... but once you run out of those things...

Well, at least the game has a lot of that stuff to do. By the time you actually manage to explore a floor completely you're probably about ready to try the next one, though you'll probably have to turn around soon...

Oh yeah, and poison is indeed really cruel... so, so painful...

Oh yeah, I turned off the "automatically color in the squares I walk on" thing before I started playing the game. It's more fun to have to do the whole map yourself. :)

[Great Rumbler]

Avoiding the FOEs for a long time until you get higher level is the other strategy

Except when you turn a blind corner and finding yourself staring down their throat and then they proceed to chase you all the way to the stairs.

[A Black Falcon]

Good point... that is not a good feeling. :)

[Dark Jaguar]

Haha, lemme guess. Poison takes effect all the time and will eventually kill you outright? I love it! Don't get me wrong, the old school challenge I love, but the old school annoyances weren't really "challenges" so much as just time consuming. By that, I mean grinding. That's not "hard", just takes a while. That's not the sort of "challenge" I like. One of the nice things about modern RPGs and their experience is they balanced the fine art of leveling so that if you just don't run away from any encounters and fully explore places, you should always be at a level that allows you to continue onward.

[A Black Falcon]

Poison is a status effect, and yes, it definitely can kill you, and it does a LOT of damage. The floor two enemies that can poison you hit you with poison that does maybe 25-30 damage per turn... with characters who arrive on the floor with barely more HP than that. Mine are now up to 30-60 (50-60 for the front line, 30-40 for the back line -- you have a five person party, and can put up to three in the front or back. Front for warriors, back for support people, of course. Fine system.), but still keep getting killed, because it's not only the bosses (FOEs) that are dangerous...

Really, your best hope with poison is that your character will dodge the hit and not get poisoned in the first place. :) There is no cheap "heal poison" potion or anything; maybe there is an expensive one, but that's not exactly in my price range if it even exists. My Bard does have a spell (song?) that reduces poison duration, but that's about it. :)

Oh, it does end at the end of the battle. The poison effect doesn't carry over once you win. It's always a huge relief when you win and avoid taking another big poison hit... venomflies are scary! :D

One of the nice things about modern RPGs and their experience is they balanced the fine art of leveling so that if you just don't run away from any encounters and fully explore places, you should always be at a level that allows you to continue onward.

Well, this one is designed so that if you never run away from battles you will be killed. A lot. :)

Fortunately, Escape is fairly reliable...

Anyway, that usual difficulty curve in newer RPGs isn't necessarily a good thing. I mean, that means that all you do is just progress forward, doing everything as you go... here, you have to actually think more. Can I face this guy now, or should I avoid him for a while and go on exploring elsewhere? The normal encounters are random, but the FOEs are visible as large orange spherelike light things... you quickly learn to be afraid when you see one of those things. :)

Also, as I said, because the game doesn't have quick-travel to and from town and the warp points are really far apart, you cover the same ground many times; so far every time I've fought a FOE and survived that's been pretty much it for the trip and the only question is to whether you think you can make it out or if you have to use a warp pipe to escape. And floor two has five FOEs (three Ragelopes which I can beat but kill some characters in the process, and some giant bull things which I haven't defeated either of yet in several tries...). And there's also exploring and mapping the maze.

It also doesn't hurt that the graphics and sound are great. Great soundtrack, and a unique setting -- while it's a dungeon-crawling RPG, instead of being in caves or castles or something, you're in a forest. An underground forest, which somehow gets sunlight anyway. :)

[Dark Jaguar]

Sunlight or glowing moss coating the ceiling?

Anyway, sounds interesting. Now let me explain I have no issue with super strong enemies mixed in with the normal strength enemies you may need to run from, or use strategy to beat, I'm just saying grinding should be avoided at all costs when designing a game.

[A Black Falcon]

It's got to be sunlight -- the game has a day/night cycle and a clock on the screen and it's darker at night. :)

Anyway, sounds interesting. Now let me explain I have no issue with super strong enemies mixed in with the normal strength enemies you may need to run from, or use strategy to beat, I'm just saying grinding should be avoided at all costs when designing a game.

Oh, I absolutely agree. But it's not like they do nothing to help you... you can see the FOEs on the map. They do move, but only when you do (one square at a time just like you) within a set area, so they can be avoided. The only tricky part is when one is chasing you... see, every turn in battle counts as a turn for them to close in on you, so if you're running with a FOE right behind you and you hit a random battle you'd better kill them fast or hope Escape works quickly. :D

Really though, with an oldschool design like this exploring and upgrading characters is the central focus of the game. (Oh yes, there is character customization beyond just choosing a class. Each character has a bunch of skills and you get one point to distribute into a skill for each level. You can't get everything...) That's what it is. Well, that, the artwork, and your imagination. :) The people in town add a bit of plot and background, but not much... just as it should be in a game like this. :)

Really, I think that my biggest problem with those '80s RPGs isn't the challenge (I'd get stuck somewhere and give up, likely, but well in I bet -- games like Wizardry VI are just so ridiculously cruel...), or the lack of plot (plenty of great games have no story), it's the lack of ingame mapping. Graph paper gets really tedious really quickly and printing out maps from the net feels like cheating. This game isn't as cruel as many of those games were (a good thing, I think, for the most part -- it's still quite hard!) as those games AND has ingame mapping, while maintaining the "you have to make the map yourself" mechanic... and that's awesome.

Anyway, played a bit today. Beat the third Ragelope (without losing anyone!) and got to floor 3. I still can't beat those two bull/boar FOEs on floor 2, though... so hard, they kill me every time... I guess I just need more levels before I can face them. They are kind of on side paths and not the main one...

As for floor 3, well, whenever you reach a new floor it's hard at first. Heck, the floor 2 enemies aren't exactly pushovers yet... it is kind of frusterating to get to a new floor and have to turn around soon because you lose someone (and I didn't have any warp wires), but oh well. At least I avoided the guy in the first room on floor 3... though they give you good warning to do that I'd say. :)

[A Black Falcon]

Reached level 10, and beat all five of the bosses on floor two (and didn't even lose anyone against the second bull thing!). Floor three though... dealing with the normal battles while being chased by insanely powerful enemies that will wipe you out if they catch up with you is cruel!

[Great Rumbler]

The Azure Rainforest is really weird, but also cool too.

I'm still chugging along and I'm currently somewhere between B12F and B13F, but progression has been slowed by some tough FOEs and some confusing level design.

[A Black Falcon]

Progress is slow (just got to floor 5), but I keep going... it is frusterating because it feels like every time I actually make it to the bottom I'm about out of MP in my mages so I have to turn around soon (the hexer in the end of floor 3 who full healed the party whenever you talked to her was a huge help for floor 4, but now that I'm at floor 5, not so much...), but even so, it's a great game.

[Great Rumbler]

B13F boss is destroying my party. I need to grind some more, I guess.

[Dark Jaguar]

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[Great Rumbler]

Hahaha, that's awesome!

[A Black Falcon]

That was awesome... :D

... I beat Fenrir, but I'm getting absolutely slaughtered on floor 6... :(

[A Black Falcon]

The "five days on floor 8" quest is one of the most horribly boring things in any game ever... and really, really exposes how annoying it is that this game doesn't have interrupt save. The 'close the lid pause' thing just isn't the same.

[Great Rumbler]

I never did that quest because it sounded boring.

[A Black Falcon]

It is incredibly boring. You can even not fight any battles for the whole incredibly long and tedious time if you want because there's that spring on that floor and there are no battles in the three squares in the room that it's in...