Quote:Oh please, they're nothing alike.

Quote:Both games came out after Mario Kart.

Quote:And you claim that Battlezone is similar to Mario Kart.

Do I even need to respond to this? It's pointless to try and reason with you.

Quote:Then Contra is the first FPS ever made since the fake 3D parts in that game were as convincing as Hovertank and Catacomb.

Quote:You don't even like Beetle Adventure Racing, by far the best car racing game on the N64.

Quote:So 'driving in a first-person viewpoint and shooting enemies' is nothing?

Quote:I know, I just wanted to know when Twisted Metal came out...

Quote:Contra and Doom are obviously way, way more similar than Battlezone and Mario Kart. I never said Battlezone had much in common with Mario Kart... just the most base idea, while Contra and Doom do have a lot more in common.

Gradius and Wing Commander are closer to Battlezone and Mario Kart than Contra and Doom.

Quote:I've seen Contra's sections. And no, there is no way in the world that they are a FPS. Its not FIRST PERSON!

And look at the screenshots. Catacomb 3D looks pretty similar to Wolf, at least based on screenshots...

Quote:I have BAR... its okay, fun at times, but nowhere near as good as Rush (2 or 2049), thats for sure. I'd also put it behind F-Zero, Wipeout, Excitebike, DKR, Mario Kart 64, 1080, Wave Race, or Hydro Thunder as far as N64 racing games go. But it is a fairly good one... and that many better than it show how great the N64 racing game lineup is...

Its better than Need for Speed (a series I've never liked very much), though, which is good given that BAR seems to be trying to cross NFS with a small amount of Rush...

Quote:BAR is waaaaaaaaaaay better than any of the Rush games. And I can't believe you like Cruisin' more than NFS. But whatever, this is as pointless as me trying to convince Darunia that Metroid Prime is better than Quest 64.

Quote:You drove very slowly and shot missiles at other tanks. So to answer your question, no.

Quote:That other game you mentioned also came out after MK.

Quote:Take away the character sprites in Contra and it's just like Catacomb.

Quote:Uh, no they are not. But as I said before, arguing with you is pointless.

Quote:Please look at that list I made.

Note that no Cruis'n games are in it.

Now try thinking about your comment again. THE GAMES I LISTED are better than BAR, NOT ONES I DIDN'T LIST.


Oh, and Rush 2049 is so much better than BAR its not even funny... BAR is fun, sure, but as good as Rush? Absolutely not.

Quote:Forget it. You obviously won't listen.

All I will say is you have strange criteria for games being similar -- Gradius and Wing Commander are very similar because you shoot at stuff in both games (they have absolutely nothing else in common gameplay wise I can see), but Battlezone and Mario Kart's battle mode aren't even remotely similar because you go slower and have just one weapon in MK? Huh? Explain how your logic makes sense?

Quote:I said that. I was just wondering if Battle Wheels or Twisted Metal was first...

Quote:Just try to explain how that comment is sane. Contra's areas like that are a straight cooridor. You go to next area. Kill all baddies at the end of the cooridor. Automove to next one. Its closer to a shooting gallery than to Doom, or even Catacomb 3d.

Quote:And so you've played Catacomb and know that it isn't a FPS and all you do is stand in points and shoot? Really? Doesn't sound like that to me...

http://www.3dgamers.com/games/catacomb3d/

Download the file and look at those screenshots. Then talk again.

Quote:If they aren't how about you give a EXPLANATION of why Gradius and Wing Commander should be in the same genre? I haven't seen you give one yet... not one that carries any weight whatsoever... while I did give a longer reason why they should not. And like usual you didn't directly respond.

Quote:You basically admitted that I was right, and the only retort you could come up with was that TIE Fighter isn't like WC! THAT'S IT!!

You just happened to forget everything and didn't expect me to check previous posts. This is very, very pathetic and arguing with someone as inane as yourself is extremely tiresome. Just give it up already.

Quote:You're absolutely nuts.

Quote:I made the Gradius/WC comparison because you were having difficulties (to put it nicely) distinguishing Mario Kart from other racers. Battlezone is a very slow tank game where you shoot missiles at people. There are more similarities between Gradius and Wing Commander or Contra and Doom than there are with MK and Battlezone. For one thing MK's battle mode isn't even the main part of the game.

Quote:you were having difficulties (to put it nicely) distinguishing Mario Kart from other racers.

Quote:I was talking about those "3d" parts, dummy.

Quote:Well seeing as how the PSX came out after 1993 I think it's a pretty safe bet that Battle Wheels came out first.

Quote:Yeah I have played it, actually. I can send you the files next time I'm on Direct Connect. It's not a 3D game, just barely more than the 3d parts in Contra.

Quote:If you'd been paying attention earlier you'd have noticed that I did say that Wing Commander is the least simlike space sim I can think of. So unlike pretty much the rest of the genre you have a case with it. I said that... you ignored it, but I said it.

Now... how about this. What about the rest of those games I listed as space sims? Would you call the rest of the space sim genre 'action games'? That I'd definitely have an issue with... but Wing Commander, I admit, is about as close the genre gets to action games.

I'd say now Wing Commander is a cross between a hard space sim and an action space flying game (Rogue Squadron, Starfighter...), so it might belong in both genres. Earlier on, anyway. By the later games in the series (Prophecy), and Starlancer, its a true space sim and not an action game anymore.

Quote:The three best racing games on N64 are Rush 2049, F-Zero X, and Wipeout 64. The order I'm not sure of, but the contents I am. Ever since the first ten minuites of playing Rush 2049 I knew it was in the company of the two games I'd been considering (since I got F-Zero) the best racers on the system... since then I have switched the order of those three sometimes (at one point I said Wipeout was better than F-Zero...), but they are, IMO, clearly the best three racing games on the system.

Number four? Probably Excitebike 64.

Feel free to disagree, but that's my opinion.

As for Rush 2049... I just love that game so much. The gameplay, the music (that game has great music! My favorite track is the first stunt song... from the first two stunt tracks. That song's great...), how its still so much fun to play on a weekly basis 2 1/2 years later...

Quote:I'd call them tank shells, not missiles.

Quote:And I wasn't comparing Battlezone to the whole of Mario Kart, just battle mode! As I said!

Sure, the similarities are very, very thin... probably less than Gradius and Wing Commander. But there is SOMETHING.

Quote:That is how you interpreted it, but it really isn't true.

Quote:And so was I...

Quote:Yeah, I thought so... wasn't the PSX '94 in Japan?

Quote:The moron who runs the plinko hub banned me for no reason, but I'm still on the three other hubs I use sometimes.

Also, the Plinko hub is private now, so you've got to go to the plinko forum and PM/email the guy who runs it a username and password...

Quote:BAR is waaaaaaaaaaay better than any of the Rush games. And I can't believe you like Cruisin' more than NFS. But whatever, this is as pointless as me trying to convince Darunia that Metroid Prime is better than Quest 64.

Quote:Hey I'm fine with it being your opinion and everything but you know, you suck.

Now I feel like playing the stunt mode in Rush 2049.

Quote:Wing Commander is the bridge between the regular action shooter and the space sim, so yes there is a similarity there.

Quote:Or green dots, actually.

Quote:Oy, this is getting nowhere.

Quote::bonk:

Quote:Then I am right.

Quote:GR, I know what you mean, and I kinda snapped in another thread and told them both off. I was going to just delete it, but I think maybe I should leave it there and see what happens, and if it turns out too horribly bad, it'll likely stand as a testament to "what NOT to EVER post".

Quote:NFS is better than Cruis'n. I never said Cruisn was better than NFS... where DID you get that from?

Quote:Stunt mode in Rush 2049 gave me a bad habit for a few years... I kept tossing tv remotes into the air and catching them... a lot... now two remotes are broken and two others rattle...

Quote:Hey, we almost agree! You say its a action game bridging to sims and I say its a sim bridging to action games... close enough.

Quote:Or were they squares...

Quote:What? You kept saying how I wasn't making the distinction between differnet types of racing games but its just not true. That isn't what I was saying. Of course I know the difference between Outrun and Mario Kart... I don't remember exactly but I didn't really understand why you were saying that. It wasn't accurate based on how I interpreted what I was saying, anyway...

Quote:How so? Explain Catacomb 3D better. How it looks very similar to Wolf but is in a totally different genre.

Quote:You said that you didn't like NFS but did like Cruis'n.

Quote:Why the hell did you toss them up in the air?

And I just played about an hour of the stunt mode with some friends. It's very addictive even though it's pretty simple (spin real fast and hope you don't blow up!).

Quote:Well large pixels which some people just call dots.

Quote:What?

Quote:Which is how it TIES them (pun intended!) to action shooters like Gradius.

Quote:Well in terms of gameplay it's similar to Wolfenstein 3D, but it's not really a FPS.

Quote:NFS is alright. I have NFSHS and it is fun... I say 'i don't like it' but that really isn't true. I do wish it was faster and more arcadey, though... but NFSHS IS fun. Not one of the best racing games out there... but decent. And better than Cruis'n because of much greater depth.. especially in HS, with its deep campaign mode...

Quote:Not so much toss as flip... like flip-toss it in the air and catch it... but when they drop it is bad for them...

And I did it for several years. Only stopped nine months ago because i had nothing around to toss...

Why? Two things... because of how the cars flip and spin in the air, and that song in the first two stunt tracks... it has these 'wsssh wssshhh' spinning noises in it... for some reason that, i think, got me to start... I don't know...

Quote:And yes stunt mode quite simple, but oh so much fun. Track 2 is best, and track 4 second best.

Oh... a few weeks back I got my best stunt trick score ever.

65,000 points for ONE TRICK. How? It was a 7-stunt trick... with 100 grinds. I was super lucky and got halfway up on a wall... so of course i kept grinding on 2 wheels for as long as I could.

Oh, and I have 29 hours and 3.6 million points in stunt mode.

Quote:I am confused too... but am too lazy to re-read the thread and figure out what I did and didn't say and mean...

Lets just leave it at that I know Mario Kart invented the kart-racing subgenre, and made big improvements in the use of weapons in racing games. But I'm not sure if that counts for revolutionary change.

Quote:That really helps...

Quote:The latest NFS (Hot Pursuit 2) game is superb. Well the PS2 version is superb, to be more precise. The Gamecube port (and to a lesser extent the X-Box port) is really bad. One of the worst ports I've ever played.

Quote:You are so weird.

Quote:That's insane!

Quote:It's revolutionary since it brought radical change to the entire genre!

Quote:Well ALttP has gameplay very similar to OoT but that's not a 3D action-adventure game.

Quote:But does it have a campaign where you start with one car and little money and by winning races you have to make enough money to fix your car (since it gets damaged in races and that greatly effects performance), enter circuits (most have entry fees), and buy more cars (once you can get enough...)?

IMO NFSHS is quite hard. I've never gotten very far... I've only ever beaten the first two easiest circuits, and in campaign never got anywhere near the money needed for a second car. Its very challenging... not the hardest racing game ever, but quite hard.

The hardest racing game I own? Motocross Madness 2. I have only ever one ONE campaign RACE. One. And that was REALLY hard... in the checkpoint mode. Its just ridiculous!

I know... I'm just AWFUL at it. Well I have played it enough to know that its just not worth the time to get good.

Same with NFSHS, but not that dramatic...

Quote:That trick, or my total time and score?

Quote:Yeah yeah yeah... it made some changes... but lots of games add some new stuff and too many of them label themselves as 'revolutionary'...

Quote:Sure, but LttP doesn't look very, very similar to OoT like Catacomb does to Wolf...

Quote:You're talking about Hot Pursuit 2, right? Well you really ought to play the PS2 version. The Gamecube version looks worse and is much, much slower than the PS2 version. It's embarrassing, really.

Quote:Both.

Quote:If a game brings radical new changes to a genre then it is revolutionary.

Quote:But Lttp's gameplay is more similar to Oot's than Catacomb's is to Wolfenstein.

Quote:In Catacomb it looks like it's 3D, but it's not because when you move forward it take a predetermined distance forward and re-renders everything to give you the feeling that are moving closer to something. Rather like Myst. It isn't really an FPS because you can only move in four different directions and are restricted to moving predetermined distances.

Quote:I'll try to explain Catacombs 3D's gameplay based on what I've read, you tell me if I'm right, OB1.

In Catacomb it looks like it's 3D, but it's not because when you move forward it take a predetermined distance forward and re-renders everything to give you the feeling that are moving closer to something. Rather like Myst. It isn't really an FPS because you can only move in four different directions and are restricted to moving predetermined distances.

I think that's right.

Quote:No, I was talking about High Stakes' campaign mode. HP2 is like that also?

But it doesn't matter because I have no way of playing the PS2 version and the Cube and PC versions are equally bad.

Quote:I just think too many games call themselves revolutionary...

Quote:But OoT plays so different from the 2d Zelda games...

Quote:Well it feels more 3D than Myst does, and you can move in more directions than that. Rather, you should think of something like Space Harrier (NES version), but with walls and more directions to walk in. Then make it really slow, choppy, and almost impossible to move where you want to.

Quote:I don't know if HP2 has that mode, but I'm sure the sequel (NFS Underground or something like that) will have something similar to that since it's all about underground street racing. And hopefully the GC port of that will be good.

Quote:Only the ones that deserve it. Not many games radically change or create new genres, but Mario Kart did both.

Quote:Controls differently, sure, but the gameplay is essentially the same. Same thing with Super Metroid and Metroid Prime. You run through a huge non-linear world exploring and shooting and find power-ups to gain access to new areas.

Quote:NFSHS is pretty good. Oh, did I mention that it has a (still operational) online service run by EA? I didn't play it online a lot, but its fun there...

Online was also one of Pod's greatest strengths. How many other racing games had a functional online service in late 1997 that you can feasibly play on a modem?

Didn't think so...

Unfortunately, about a year ago Ubisoft killed the Pod online gameservice. Which stinks, but almost no one used it anyway...

Oh well, at least Pod still has splitscreen/modem/network/IP.

Quote:I'm just not comfterble with saying it radically changed the genre to the degree you say...

Quote:I know when I played OoT for the first time it was so different from LA that it almost felt like a different series... it has critical differences, such as the dramatic difference in the overworld -- LA had a large, challenging overworld you spent a lot of time in, wandering around and fighting badguys and doing quests. In OoT, you spend some time in the overworld but not that much and its much more open and there are very few enemies. I love it that way too, but its quite different...

Quote:The DC POD game had pretty smooth online play.

Quote:That's because you know very little about this topic.

Quote:OoT was a near-perfect leap from 2D to 3D. It kept the trademark 2D Zelda gameplay but changed some things to fit three dimensions (like the fighting system). But overall OoT is very similar to the 2D Zeldas.

Quote:Yeah, but the PC game came out years earlier...

Quote:I've played Mario Kart, Mario Kart clones, F-Zero, Outrun, etc...

Quote:Play style and dungeons... yes. But the overworld changed a lot... especially from LA. LttP it was a smaller change since that one has a more compact overworld... or at least it feels smaller, since its split in two.

Quote:Okay....

Quote:But not when MK came out, so you didn't see the impact it had on the genre.

Quote:The overworld isn't as important as the rest of the game.

Quote:Did you miss when I said 1997?

Quote:You don't always have to be there to analyze it later!

Anyway, I played some of the copies (on PC) not too long after they came out...

Quote:Especially in OoT. Its much less of a actual gameplay part of the game than it is in the previous games.

Quote:What about it?

Quote:Well unless you take a good long look at all of the racing games that came out before and after Mario Kart, you had to be there.

Quote:"be there" means what? I played Nintendo (NES, mostly), I read Nintendo Power... had a PC...

So to analyze anything you must have been alive when it happened? Funny, try to tell that to historians...

Quote: That has got to be the dumbest thing I've heard from you in a long, long time. So LA's world is bigger because there are more grid spaces than LttP's, even though each one of LttP's grid spaces is over eight times the size of LA's??!

Quote:That screenshot I posted doesn't even cover an entire grid space in LttP. If you had played the game you would know that each grid space is larger than the screen itself, and you know when you've gotten into another grid space when the camera shifts Link to another space, just like it goes in LA. The two maps I posted are to scale, but since you're so damn stubborn I'll post another two maps, although this time I'll blow up the LttP map and keep the LA map pretty clear, but Link's size with be the exact same in both maps so it will be to scale!

Quote:Uhh... the size of LttP grid spaces seems to vary depending on which zone you are in... or is that wrong? But it seems like it.

Quote:Look. It is physically larger. But once you factor in the other things I mentioned -- larger terrain features, 4x larger trees, etc, etc -- that size "advantage" becomes much, much less. LttP has more physical territory but gameplaywise... it just isn't that clear. Factor in the size differences between things and I bet it suddenly wouldn't look as clear that LttP's gameplay world is bigger in a gameplay, and not just direct look, way...

The Light World. You wander around about 2/3 of that area right at the beginning with not much opposition... actually its closer to OoT in that respect -- a more open, less challenging field in that part. Yes, the Dark World defintely gets harder... but still...

Oh, and because of the difference in level design and size of stuff those "8x larger zones" lose a fair part of their size advantage...

And because of the game design it feels large in LA. Yes, LttP's feels big too.... but just not in the same way, not when you can access so much of it relatively early on in the game...

LA also has you go through many areas of the game in your travels due to the world design while often in LttP it feels like you go to one corner, get whatever you need to do there, then don't return there and go back to the central area (with a really, really big castle filling up a lot of space).

Quote:I'm not insulting LttP... its a great game! The world just doesn't feel as large to me. Thats all.