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+--- Thread: Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! (/showthread.php?tid=772)
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Dark Jaguar - 15th June 2003
Okay, first off, I wanna know one thing. How is being able to tell that's you in a mirror supposed to be proof of self-awareness? The animal may just be too stupid to realize that, but can still analyze their OWN existance. All the mirror thing shows is the intelligence to know that image is a reflection.
Second off, what's with the whole "I don't see your NAME on it" thing kids do? That's silly! And yet, at the same time, I think Jesus first came up with that rule when he said something like "YOUR coins? I don't see your face on it, I see some else's face on it so give it to him!", so I gotta wonder...
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - alien space marine - 16th June 2003
Animals somtimes growl and bark at their reflections and even cats somtimes hiss.
believing it is a compititor.
Your account of Jesus is when he said give to ceasar what is Ceasars and give to god what is gods.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Dark Jaguar - 17th June 2003
Thanks for telling me bits of information that I not only already know, but HAD to know in order to make that post in the first place! Now then, are you actually going to debate or just continue telling me stuff that my very statements make it obvious that I'm aware of it?
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Darunia - 17th June 2003
How is being able to tell that's you in a mirror supposed to be proof of self-awareness?
I think ASM just said it pretty well...you asked how is recognizing one's self in a mirror proof of self-awareness, right? Well, animals don't recognize themselves, so they aren't self-aware. When we do recognized ourselves, it's self-awareness. You said that the animal may just be too stupid to realize it; but isn't that because he's so stupid he doesn't realize himself; thusly, he isn't self-aware.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Geno - 17th June 2003
Considering an animal has no way of knowing what it looks like, there's no way it can know that the other animal in the mirror is its reflection, unless that animal is really smart and can observe its surroundings and notice that they, too, are reflected in the mirror. But how many animals have bothered to do the research?
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - alien space marine - 17th June 2003
My dog , He used to bark at the mirror and go hostile , but later on he just ignored it and didnt care anymore. I dont know if he realized it was his reflection or not but he does have the ability to remeber and improve his thinking.
But some animals are so stupid they will never learn from their mistakes, Like chewing on electric wires lying around.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Dark Jaguar - 17th June 2003
Darunia, you miss my point. Sure on the surface it seems like a perfect way to tell, but really think about it. All it seems to be to me is a method of determining intelligence. I think an animal may very well be self aware and yet be too stupid to realize that a mirror is just a reflection. The two aren't totally dependent on each other. An animal may very well have thought about it's purpose in the world, or thought of itself as it's own being seperate from the world, and yet is too stupid to recognize that every movement that thing in the mirror is making is the same as it's own movement. I see no reason to think that an animal MUST be smart enough to recognize itself in a mirror in order to be self aware.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Great Rumbler - 17th June 2003
Well, it takes logic, which isn't present in most animals and the ones that do posses some logic don't have very much, to tell that the image in the mirror is just a reflection and logic, I'm totally guessing here so don't get mad at me if it isn't anywhere near to being corret, is necessary to be self-aware.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Dark Jaguar - 17th June 2003
Naw, it isn't. I was just thinking and realized the obvious. A program could easily be made so that a computer would be able to use a mirror to see itself and use that data to do stuff to itself, well not easily :D, but it could be done, and the computer could hardly be said to be self-aware.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - alien space marine - 18th June 2003
I remeber seeing a startrek episode once in the orginal , were an android was told that everything the other man said was a lie, The Android went besserk unabled to comprehend that not everything a human says is literal and more symbolic. The Android blew up because his logic overloaded his brain with a problem he couldnt solve.
So to be self aware requires more then just logic but also a sense of symbolism like "the house is always a mess" which doesnt mean literaly it is always a mess just most of the time it is.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Dark Jaguar - 18th June 2003
That's Star Trek. That show knows nothing about programming, and it seems to have learned nothing about it since then. An actual robot wouldn't have responded like that, because a robot would have to be PROGRAMMED to not only take everything someone says as literal (symbolism is indeed something a machine can be programmed to understand in phrases, one phrase at a time, just as we learn the phrases, for after all even normal phrases would also have to be programmed in for the machine to understand them), but also to analyze and reanalyze something it doesn't understand in an infinite loop (and Fry's an idiot), which would be a huge mistake. Let's not forget that there's no reason a robot would explode just because the program crashed. The guy who made that robot was obviously an idiot. Maybe he should remove the TNT from the updated schematics.... Gir, reporting for duty!
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - alien space marine - 18th June 2003
cannot forget its the 60's , There are computers that do recognize voices and can make decisions on thier own but nothing to the likes the matrix or Terminator.
The android would probaily stall and fall to the ground but not exploid.besdies startrek was made in the 60's ,the Data character in TNG is a bit more what were shooting for who can comprehend things and is aware of his suroundings.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Nintendarse - 19th June 2003
Comparing a computer to an animal is a big leap. The computer would be DESIGNED to work with a mirror. Humans, cats, and dogs have no hard-wired mirror skills. They're simply using the tools they have (eyes, brain) to figure it out. Is mirror recognition and self-awareness linked? Absolutely. Is it a perfect match? No.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Laser Link - 22nd June 2003
If you had never seen yourself and did not know what a mirror was, would you know that you were looking at yourself? We think it's so obvious because mirrors are a standard part of our lifestyle, but we were told what they are and do. And I haven't yet figured out how to communicate with my cats well enough to tell them what a mirror is.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Great Rumbler - 22nd June 2003
It would be possible to not know at first, but I'm sure that it that person and noticed that every move they made was copied by the mirror they would be able to note eventually that it was a reflection of themselves.
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - Dark Jaguar - 22nd June 2003
Again, it's an obvious hint of intelligence, but again, I'm sure many self-aware things could easily be too stupid to figure it out, or maybe would have no reason at all to want to figure it out. Again, though indeed my computer example is a case of something being designed with that skill in mind, it is meant to show that something that isn't the slightest bit self aware could recognize itself in a mirror.
Then again, I heard this as an unexplained "fact" from a similar show that says lie detectors actually work. Lie detectors are scientifically prooven to be wastes of time, and in fact aren't admissable in court, but cops still use them because they don't want to give up what they think is still a good tool. Don't they know science rules over them no matter their opinions?
Odd to the idiotic degree philoshophetia! - alien space marine - 23rd June 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Dark Jaguar
Again, it's an obvious hint of intelligence, but again, I'm sure many self-aware things could easily be too stupid to figure it out, or maybe would have no reason at all to want to figure it out. Again, though indeed my computer example is a case of something being designed with that skill in mind, it is meant to show that something that isn't the slightest bit self aware could recognize itself in a mirror.
Then again, I heard this as an unexplained "fact" from a similar show that says lie detectors actually work. Lie detectors are scientifically prooven to be wastes of time, and in fact aren't admissable in court, but cops still use them because they don't want to give up what they think is still a good tool. Don't they know science rules over them no matter their opinions?
The reason lie detectors are questioned is that anybody who is a expert at emulating and controling his emotions and thinkings can get away with it.
But it can still work not only in just how effective it is but how somtimes the truth can be brought out by the suspects respounces not just what you see out of the machine.