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+--- Thread: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (/showthread.php?tid=7096)
Star Wars: The Last Jedi - A Black Falcon - 29th December 2017
Warning: Unmarked spoilers!
So I saw this movie last night, and I've got very mixed feelings on it.
In its style, writing, plot, and more, I saw this as the least Star Wars movie ever. This shows throughout, such as in the acting and composition. Even more than The Force Awakens, this is clearly a movie by a different person, not George Lucas, making a very different film. It also shows in the writing, as the central "kill the past" theme is a major divergence from Star Wars' past. It also ignores or very weakly answers the major unanswered questions from the last movie, The Force Awakens, which is kind of annoying.
All of that stuff is understandably divisive. As a big fan of all of George Lucas's Star Wars movies, but a critic of the post-Lucas ones, I was expecting to not exactly love this movie, and that is the case for the most part. I love the Lucas movies, "bad" acting or no, and this extremely different style was offputting. Even I didn't think it was all bad, though; I liked it sometimes and disliked it other times. Like the style or not it is, for the most part, a well-made movie which tells an interesting story. I think that story has some critical flaws, but still, it was interesting and tense. The space battle scenes are probably the highlight, I think.
Here's the thing, though. Beyond any complaints about some other details of the plot, and I could get into that, I think there is a central, crippling irony behind this movie. While on the one hand The Last Jedi goes against Star Wars convention in many ways, on the other hand it continues on one element of The Force Awakens: it is dedicated to the terrible idea that they must recreate the universe of the original trilogy, whether or not it makes any sense whatsoever.
So, in The Force Awakens, the New Republic was a thing... but then, seemingly out of nowhere, a massive force appeared called the First Order. It is not explained how they got so strong so quickly. They have a giant superweapon which can blow up multiple planets at once, and during TFA it fires, destroying the New Republic's capitol world and some of their fleet or something, as if it would all be in one place or something. The Last Jedi continues on this theme; now the Republic is dead, the Order has taken over the galaxy, and the movie cuts the good guys, the Resistance, down more and more until it's like a couple dozen people by the end, max.
Now, two problems: first, none of the First Order's rise makes any sense at all, and none is explained in either film to any degree worth mentioning. And second, this basic concept, that a secret army appears out of nowhere and crushes the actually weak known armies of the world/universe in a single stroke, in order to set up an 'underdog' arc in a series where it does not make any sense at all, is REALLY REALLY BAD writing. It's terrible conspiracy-theory stuff, and I pretty much hate it. This is not an uncommon trope in fiction, and it is both always terrible and makes absolutely no sense almost all of the time. I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories, I want things to be plausible within their world's rules. This kind of story fails on that level. It's one thing if it is a literal alien invasion out of nowhere, but in a known world you can't do this and get away with it, not if you want to have written an actual credible story! And yet, the plots of both TFA and TLJ ONLY work if you accept this, without almost anything in the movies themselves that makes me believe for a second that any of that could ever have happened.
Now, part of my dislike is of course also about the old Expanded Universe, about all of those Star Wars books I read in the '90s and '00s. The EU had its ups and downs for sure, much more downs than ups in its later years, but to distill the difference between the EU and TFA/TLJ, the EU's version is "safer" and more positive. Lots of really bad stuff happens, more and more in the books from the '00s on, but it never gets anywhere near as bad as it does in these new movies, and in retrospect I appreciate it for that. This is not my main reason for disliking this kind of story, but seriously, I know that sci-fi is often quite dark, but this movie is a bit much.
So overall, considering all of that, how can I take this movie seriously at all? The whole plot of The Last Jedi is about the chase, about how this unstoppable, galaxy-controlling First Order has the last remnants of hope on the run, dying one by one. It's a dark and sometimes interesting film, and I like parts, such as the settings, the space battles, the segment with Rey in the cave, and more. It has other issues as well, such as how its version of Luke goes. I think that this Luke made for a good story, but does not fit well at all with the Luke of the original trilogy, or with how the Jedi work. Or how about Leia? Even ignoring the silly flying-through-space bit, she's reduced back to her ESB-ish role of "base commander of the rebellion", which is certainly not what an older Leia should be. The politician Leia of the Expanded Universe was a much better character I think... but behind all of that, the whole setup only happens because of an idiotic and impossible to believe piece of badly written nonsense! The rest of that stuff matters, and I might address that in another post, but this is the most important problem with both of the new, post-Lucas Star Wars movies: that they felt the need to recreate the "rebels versus empire" setup of the original trilogy, in a setting where you cannot do that.
On the other hand though, I definitely like that this series has a female lead protagonist. Lucas's Star Wars movies are great, but the original trilogy barely has any female characters, and the prequels aren't as much improved as they should be. Apparently the idea of a female lead in this series actually comes from George Lucas, but regardless, seeing in this movie that it's not only Rey, there are a lot of female roles, is a very good thing.
On the whole though, I think that it's kind of unfortunate that The Last Jedi, while making a boldly different kind of Star Wars movie -- in a lot of ways that rub me seriously the wrong way as a longtime Star Wars fan, but also some that I liked -- on the other hand also decided to double down on the previous film's worst element, the devotion to recreating the rebels-versus-overpowering-empire universe of the original trilogy in a setting where you really cannot do that credibly. It's really ironic that this movie which exists to "kill the past" and 'free' Star Wars from its past... is also dedicated to recreating that past in a central, and yet really badly conceived and almost utterly unexplained, way. Too bad.
... So yeah, I thought The Last Jedi was ... okay-ish? Disappointing, but maybe not as awful as I thought it might be, I guess? And yet, it is very disappointing and a waste, in some key elements; it's sad that this movie will be the last time we see Luke and Leia on screen together, because it sure doesn't do well with them in so many ways! The Force Awakens is, in my opinion, the worst Star Wars movie. This one... uh, it might be better, or worse? I'm not sure that I can decide that yet.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Dark Jaguar - 30th December 2017
The difference between critics and fans on this movie is amazing. Personally, I leaned more towards the critics on this one. I enjoyed it for what it was and for being different. At least visually, I think it looked better than any other Star Wars. However, I'm not a long-time Star Wars fan, so when my friend who is told me it was worse than some of the prequels, I was pretty surprised. I get it now though.
I did notice one thing that really bugged me. No less than 5 times they did a plotline bait-&-switch in this movie. I'm talking about it standing on it's own mind you. They let us think Kylo might turn good, then he acts on that lead up, then nope, back to square one he's evil again. They let us think Luke's student betrayed him, thent hey flash back showing Luke betrayed his student, then they flash back again saying " nope it was the first thing after all". They let us think that woman dressed like a hunger games character is noble, then an evil general, then she's noble again. They waste our time with a sub plot involving disarming a warp space tracker only to reveal it was all pointless and never actually the plan.
Those little sub plots only existed for tension, none of them paying off in any real way.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi - alien space marine - 4th January 2018
JJ Abrams planted mysteries in TFA , that ultimately ended up just being red herrings that went nowhere in the following movie.
The sequel trilogy suffers from the “ make it up as you go” style of writing, the biggest problem is that it’s not even the same writer or director handling each movie.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi - A Black Falcon - 4th January 2018
Yeah, that's a definite thing about this movie, it takes TFA's setup... and drops many key points, replacing them with nothing. Beyond the basic concept of 'making a new trilogy that mimics the original' and some details about the key characters, there isn't much of a connection between these two movies, and I agree that you really can tell that different people made them.
Now, the question is, is it just 'make it up as they go' writing as you say, or is it Rian Johnson trying to 'free Star Wars from its past' by abandoning almost all of it outside of the core rebellion v. empire, Kylo v. Rey, setup? Because it seems kind of intentional, with how thoroughly he tried to subvert expectations on many fronts. If that is true, as much as I dislike some of the results, changing things up that much is kind of interesting. The movie doesn't always do exactly what you expect.
But that is only partially true. The movie is also superficial far too often, lacking the depth of previous Star Wars movies - see the very basic explanation of how the Force works, for example; absolutely full of crippling plot holes so large there barely is even a movie left if you consider them, as I said in the OP; etc. It's hard to praise a movie this lacking in depth.
So, even if the possible subversions are intentional and not accidental results of changing writers, how much does that matter? You still have a case of a movie written by a guy who decided to abandon almost every setup that the last movie created for this one, which is a pretty odd thing to do in a movie that is supposedly a sequel.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:I get it now though.I presume you're basing this statement on more than just what I said, but how about I add some more to that anyway...
What I said is just one way in which this movie has issues, though it is a significant one. These new Star Wars movies don't explain anything very well. They seem to have been written as stories made to sell tickets, not as things actually set in the Star Wars universe. So:
- As I said, how do they actually think that the destruction of the New Republic actually is credible based on what we have seen in these two movies? Because it isn't, at all!
- Rey is absurdly, unrealistically overpowered. I know she is a strong Jedi, and that's fine, but she beats Kylo Ren the first time she's ever held a lightsaber, in TFA, and then does even better this time, and still with barely any training? Kylo can fight off Luke, but untrained Rey? Forget it! On the one hand it's good to see a strong female character in Star Wars, but this goes way overboard into the impossible.
- The hyperspace ram thing Admiral Holdo does in TLJ is impossible and does not follow the rules of how hyperspace jumps work in Star Wars. It makes for a good scene but would not work, in Star Wars' reality. The new regime (Disney) obviously does not care much about such things anymore; Lucas would have.
Etc.
Quote:I did notice one thing that really bugged me. No less than 5 times they did a plotline bait-&-switch in this movie. I'm talking about it standing on it's own mind you. They let us think Kylo might turn good, then he acts on that lead up, then nope, back to square one he's evil again. They let us think Luke's student betrayed him, thent hey flash back showing Luke betrayed his student, then they flash back again saying " nope it was the first thing after all". They let us think that woman dressed like a hunger games character is noble, then an evil general, then she's noble again. They waste our time with a sub plot involving disarming a warp space tracker only to reveal it was all pointless and never actually the plan.
Those little sub plots only existed for tension, none of them paying off in any real way.
Well, it's either that or it's all intentional subversion. Take your pick as to which you believe.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Dark Jaguar - 5th January 2018
It can be both. It was "Going nowhere fast: The Movie".
I did love the warp drive smashy smash scene. It does raise questions though. Why even have manned ships? Why not just stick a bunch of warp drives on some shuttles and remotely guide them into the enemy fleet while safe and sound back at your base?
Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Sacred Jellybean - 5th January 2018
I thought it was great, much better than The Force Awakens, and on par with Rogue One (which I also loved). I didn't mind that the bait-and-switch plot points only happened for tension. I don't think Kylo Ren was turning good, then evil again. I think he was always evil. Rey saw potential in him turning good, but she made a bad judgment. Kylo Ren may have also been fooling her to some extent. Or, since Snoke was linking the two, maybe he was misleading/manipulating her. I don't think Kylo Ren killed Snoke and his crew because he was having a lapse of "good", I think he was both raging out at Snoke for belittling him, and vying for his power. The scene of him and Rey battling wills for the light sabre was badass. I could have done without the cliched villain "JOIN ME, AND WE WILL RULE THE UNIVERSE TOGETHER" speech.
It was a little frustrating to have Finn and Paige's plan foiled so easily, but it was a good setup for DJ to betray them. They probably could have come up with a better way for it to happen than "some storm troopers wandered by and caught them lol". I was pleasantly surprised to see Laura Dern show up. The point of her posing as an inept/evil admiral was so her plan to secretly sneak people off in escape pods could come to fruition, without the plan leaking to the first order somehow. So, as annoying as it was to have the First Order find out anyway, at least her character/motivations were consistent.
The showdown on the planet was AMAZING, and imo made up for any possible flaws in the first two acts. I loved all the scenes with Luke Skywalker. I was delighted to see Yoda make an appearance, with Frank Oz returning to voice him. It was a perfect end to his character arc to commit himself to the force, much in the same way as Obi-Wan.
Quote:Rey is absurdly, unrealistically overpowered. I know she is a strong Jedi, and that's fine, but she beats Kylo Ren the first time she's ever held a lightsaber, in TFA, and then does even better this time, and still with barely any training? Kylo can fight off Luke, but untrained Rey? Forget it! On the one hand it's good to see a strong female character in Star Wars, but this goes way overboard into the impossible.
This is pretty frustrating. I guess I just came to accept it, after The Force Awakens. No reason to walk it back with the sequel. Maybe Luke had trouble fighting off Kylo because he's older and weaker, more of a teacher than a warrior. Rey, also being youthful and full of energy and strength, might be able to match Kylo for that reason.
This probably is an issue of Star Wars fanatics vs. regular movie-goers, like you said.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi - alien space marine - 5th January 2018
the purple haired vice admiral risked a whole mutiny by keeping Poe in the dark for no reason.