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+--- Thread: The New Neo-Nazi Right (/showthread.php?tid=7071)
The New Neo-Nazi Right - A Black Falcon - 16th August 2017
Recent events -- the neonazi/neo-Confederate march on Charlottesville and such -- have been bad, but personally I'm not shocked, or as surprised by this as some seem to be. I mean, Trump ran for President on an explicitly racist agenda. He race-baited, said racist things, and more, over and over and over. He only ever ran for President in the first place because Obama is black. He has always refused to condemn racists who support him, both because he is one and because he knows that they are some of his most loyal supporters. Etc.
So that this agenda, which is now even more openly visible to everyone thanks to his horrendously racist and uncaring comments after that alt-right guy killed a protester with his car, led to a hate rally? Yeah, that makes sense. The right has been emboldened by Trump and knows that he supports them, and rallies like this are one result of that.
I do find one thing interesting, though -- the people in that march, going by the pictures, mostly just look normal; they aren't skinheads, in KKK robes, etc, they just look normal-ish. I saw one article saying that this is an intentional strategy, done to appeal to people in a way that those more obviously identifiable ways don't anymore. That makes sense, I just wish they were having less success... because for all the blowback this has gotten, clearly a significant minority of people agree with those views at least enough to continue supporting Trump, and in some cases going to these rallies. The neonazi evil is growing faster thanks to Trump (and Bannon).
It is nice to see even some more Fox News people turn on Trump over this, though -- see this clip from usually extremely Trump-friendly Fox & Friends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SQCzhv1kfI
So yeah, the most important thing is stopping this new right. Trump seriously needs to go, by impeachment, Article 25, or something like that; even other significant Republican lawmakers are sane enough to not openly support white supremacists, so no Trump would make a real difference here. Sure, other Republicans absolutely support the far right with some of their policies, but Trump;s very overt support is a big step farther that is helping their cause, and removing Trump would help a lot.
Failing that, we need to win that election next year somehow, because seriously this administration needs to fail!
And most importantly, in the interim people need to push back against the right. I'm definitely not a supporter of the more violent wings of the left, it's wrong and illegal and I don't want to see any validity appear behind the lies some less overtly racist on the right are saying about how "but both sides are bad". Peaceful protests are important, though, and more -- contacting congresspeople, etc.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - Dark Jaguar - 17th August 2017
Considering neo just means "new" this thread title is a little redundant.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - A Black Falcon - 17th August 2017
True, but Neo-Nazi has a meaning that isn't just these people... but would "The New Nazi Right" be a better name? Or "The New American Nazi Threat"? There are so many possible titles...
It's great that these monuments are being removed, but as someone who cares a lot about history I don't like the idea of destroying them. One argument against them is that these are not statues put up shortly after the war, to directly commemorate it. Instead the statues that are getting the most attention are ones mostly put up in the early 20th century, as racist symbols of Jim Crow Southern oppression. Removing those symbols by taking those statues out of public squares and streets is great. People should not need to be reminded of that kind of oppression every time they walk down the street, and there is no other defense for having those statues there -- they fought for slavery, there is no defense like there is for Revolutionary War-era slaveowners we similarly honor -- and this is why the "but Washington will be next" argument is, I think, flawed. Yes, some people will say 'and Washington and Jefferson shouldn't be honored either', but they are not indelibly tied to the defense of slavery like Confederate figures are and that is a very important difference..
However, people saying that those statues should all be destroyed go way too far. Cultures throughout history have tried to erase people from history by scraping their names off of places it is written in stone, destroying statues, and the like, and I've never liked that, so I don't think that this is more okay just because these statues unquestionably honor something horrible. Put them in battlefield parks, cemeteries, historical societies, and the like; places where that kind of thing actually fits. Don't melt them down.
I know it is tricky though -- one the one hand it is important to remember history and not erase it, but on the other hand you don't want to create places where white nationalists will gather like they have been. If those statues were only in battlefield parks and historical societies and the like, would the new American Nazis be gathering there instead of in Charlottesville? Maybe then you could get rid of them, those people need to be stopped and providing such obvious places for them to gather is something that probably should be avoided. Despite that though I do think that it is important to remember history and not destroy monuments unless there is a very good reason for it.
There are more things beyond just statues to change, though. Flags are another important way many Southern states show their continued affection for slavery, for example. The Confederate battle flag is still right on the flag of one of our states, and that is horrible and very much needs to go! Though a lot of other Southern states have flags that heavily reference Confederacy-era designs in their flags; just because there isn't a stars-and-bars doesn't mean that flags aren't Confederate references, sadly. Georgia, for instance, replaced their old flag that had a big Confederate battle flag on it with a new one that's basically the Confederate national flag, but with the Georgia seal on it. So far states have gotten away with flags like those as the attention is all on the battle flag, but at some point this kind of thing needs to be changed as well.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - Dark Jaguar - 17th August 2017
A museum giving the proper context (meaning in this case clearly indicating the terrible things done without sugar coating it or saying "there are two sides to every story") is where statues of some historical significance belong. It's no different in this case than a holocaust museum.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - A Black Falcon - 17th August 2017
Yeah, I agree. It's great that the statues are being removed, but "destroy them all" is not a good instinct. You're right that museums need to put them in an accurate historical context, though... I somehow doubt a lot of the places that would be taking them would do so, sadly enough.
But thinking about it now, my idea probably would be this: replace those statues of Lee and such in public squares with statues of slavery (and continued racial oppression)'s victims. That way you still remember that the war happened, but you do not honor evil anymore. Leave example statues of Confederate generals in historical societies and battlefield monuments. There needs to be some kind of public memory that the Civil War happened, but it should be tied to the continuing struggle against the kind of oppression that led to the war, not to glorifying people fighting for one of the worst things anyone has ever fought for.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - Dark Jaguar - 17th August 2017
Not sure where you're hearing from the "destroy it" crowd. Just about all the left leaning people I talk to agree that history must be preserved so we don't repeat past mistakes, such as the daily show. That said there is a world of difference between having a swastika in a holocaust museum and making it the state flag. When the alt-right says the statues need to stay where they are for history's sake, I would point out the museum option satisfies that without actively promoting it.
Your idea for a replacement is a "heart is in the right place" sort of idea. The history should be preserved, and will be, but putting giant statues of black slaves out there in the open for every black person to have to see every time they walk by is... problematic. Such statues are best put in places specifically dedicated to those lessons and not more general locations.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - A Black Falcon - 20th August 2017
Oh, there's a big "destroy it" crowd out there on the internet. And it's not only that; Baltimore just took down four Confederate statues, and I believe they said they will probably destroy them. That would be unfortunate.
On another note though, I like how nationwide Confederate memorials are coming down or being moved to less prominent locations. That includes here in Maine, as this shows: http://www.pressherald.com/2017/08/19/bowdoin-college-is-moving-confederate-memorial-plaque/
Quote: Your idea for a replacement is a "heart is in the right place" sort of idea. The history should be preserved, and will be, but putting giant statues of black slaves out there in the open for every black person to have to see every time they walk by is... problematic. Such statues are best put in places specifically dedicated to those lessons and not more general locations.I was thinking of Germany there, and how they have so many monuments to the Nazis' victims. Why shouldn't we do something similar? It'd probably be a good idea...
The New Neo-Nazi Right - Dark Jaguar - 25th August 2017
A monument to the victims is a good idea, I'm just not too keen on your implementation. Perhaps a large wall with names (as best as history records can get them considering we're talking about slaves) would be appropriate, but images of black people being put down just isn't a good look.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - A Black Falcon - 20th September 2017
http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/government-politics/nat-turner-the-leader-of-a-violent-virginia-slave-uprising/article_ff963fe8-d438-5a59-858a-272120f2eb5a.html
Well, this is kind of one of the things I was talking about, isn't it... Nat Turner is deserving of controversy (killing civilians and all), but if you're going to have statues of slaveowners, it's definitely right to also have one of someone who fought back against them.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - Dark Jaguar - 20th September 2017
I don't know, I'm pretty sure I can't judge someone for killing civilians in a slave uprising. I mean, they were slaves. What did you expect him to do? Politely engage them in debate?
The New Neo-Nazi Right - A Black Falcon - 21st September 2017
True, you can make a case for all of them being complicit in the slaveowning system. Killing babies and such is wrong though, regardless... but standing up to being enslaved isn't, and yeah, as you say, very limited options.
The New Neo-Nazi Right - Dark Jaguar - 22nd September 2017
A Black Falcon Wrote:True, you can make a case for all of them being complicit in the slaveowning system. Killing babies and such is wrong though, regardless... but standing up to being enslaved isn't, and yeah, as you say, very limited options.
Yes, I'll agree going after the defenseless, especially children, is a step too far. I can just understand the need to take on society itself when it's the society that is about to arrest you and throw you back in the slave pens.